Understanding Putin- Ukraine

[Josh]

Or maybe give Texas back to Mexico.

Who stole it from various Indian tribes......

But, Neither Ukraine nor Crimea ever belonged to The Russian Federation. NEVER. Should the British take back India? Portugal take back Brazil? Oh, wait, the Dutch were the first EUROPEANS to settle in the North East of Brazil, After all, they were the first to steal it from the Indians who lived there before. And if someone thinks that The Russian Federation is the same as the Russian Empire, well, THAT Russia stole Crimea from Turkey. At some point it has to stop.

Exactly. The world order established in the wake of WW2 essentially froze borders in place and set up international mechanisms to resolve disputes short of wars of aggression. There have been very few examples of wars of territorial conquest since then.

Israel's conquest of the West Bank which they have justifiably portrayed as defensive wars against invading Arab armies.
Iraq's invasion of Kuwait
Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Plenty of other wars have happened since WW2 but generally not ones intended to redraw national boundaries through military conquest. If we revert back to a pre-WW2 world with endless wars of conquest it is going to be a very long and bloody century.

If you think we should stick with borders established right after WWII, then Moscow would be controlling the entire area of the former USSR - not to mention places like East Germany.

[JimFoxvog]

True enough. He had better content himself with invading Alaska...

It's probably time for the Iroquois to take back New York.

Maybe that needs to go back to the Dutch since they bought it from the natives fair and square.

Not likely. It seems they "bought" Manhattan probably from those who had no right to sell it. I'll sell you Illinois for just a few times the value of my house...

[Ken]

Who stole it from various Indian tribes......

But, Neither Ukraine nor Crimea ever belonged to The Russian Federation. NEVER. Should the British take back India? Portugal take back Brazil? Oh, wait, the Dutch were the first EUROPEANS to settle in the North East of Brazil, After all, they were the first to steal it from the Indians who lived there before. And if someone thinks that The Russian Federation is the same as the Russian Empire, well, THAT Russia stole Crimea from Turkey. At some point it has to stop.

Exactly. The world order established in the wake of WW2 essentially froze borders in place and set up international mechanisms to resolve disputes short of wars of aggression. There have been very few examples of wars of territorial conquest since then.

Israel's conquest of the West Bank which they have justifiably portrayed as defensive wars against invading Arab armies.
Iraq's invasion of Kuwait
Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Plenty of other wars have happened since WW2 but generally not ones intended to redraw national boundaries through military conquest. If we revert back to a pre-WW2 world with endless wars of conquest it is going to be a very long and bloody century.

If you think we should stick with borders established right after WWII, then Moscow would be controlling the entire area of the former USSR - not to mention places like East Germany.

Once again you never fail to miss the point.

The USSR was a confederation of separate republics. When it dissolved the existing borders remained in place. Latvia, Georgia, Turkmenistan, etc. all kept their existing borders. East Germany and West Germany were an artificial construct. the French, British, and American zones all unified long ago. It was only foot-dragging and intervention by the Soviets that prevented the Russian sector from joining the others for what? 40 years or so? At the end of WW2 there was one Germany that was governed by four separate occupation zones. It was not four separate countries.

[Josh]

The country that existed from WWII until 1990 was the Soviet Union, or USSR.

West Germany and East Germany were different countries.

If one wishes to look farther back, the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire that existed from 1721 to 1917; the “Tsardom” before that existed since the 1500s. The USSR was formalised in 1922.

Whatever you want to claim about Ukraine, it hasn’t existed as an independent country until 1990.

[Ken]

The country that existed from WWII until 1990 was the Soviet Union, or USSR.

West Germany and East Germany were different countries.

If one wishes to look farther back, the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire that existed from 1721 to 1917; the “Tsardom” before that existed since the 1500s. The USSR was formalised in 1922.

Whatever you want to claim about Ukraine, it hasn’t existed as an independent country until 1990.

Once again you completely missed the point.

Prior to WW2 international disputes were settled by wars. After WW2 that ended. Both the USSR and bifurcation of Germany ended peacefully without wars.

Since WW2 the only countries that have attempted to expand their borders through wars of conquest have been Israel, Iraq, and now Russia. One might also add Serbia to that list depending on how you view Kosovo.

There have been a lot of civil wars and colonial wars. But examples of one nation invading another in a war of conquest have been very few and far between.

[Josh]

Prior to WW2 international disputes were settled by wars. After WW2 that ended.

War has certainly continued to exist post WWII. Examples of territorial disputes or countries getting invaded by another country:

Vietnam (1960s)
Korea (1950s)
Afghanistan (1980-2022)
Iraq/Iran/Kuwait

Civil wars, empires invading smaller countries, bordering countries having disputes and attacking each other… it’s been ongoing since V-Day.

[Ken]

Prior to WW2 international disputes were settled by wars. After WW2 that ended.

War has certainly continued to exist post WWII. Examples of territorial disputes or countries getting invaded by another country:

Vietnam (1960s)
Korea (1950s)
Afghanistan (1980-2022)
Iraq/Iran/Kuwait

Civil wars, empires invading smaller countries, bordering countries having disputes and attacking each other… it’s been ongoing since V-Day.

Vietnam, Korea, and Afghanistan were all civil wars with great powers intervening on one side or the other and trying to prop up various friendly governments. But they were not about territorial conquest. As far as I know, the borders of Vietnam, Korea, and Afghanistan are all identical to where they were at the end of WW2. The Korean civil war is essentially still going on. They have an armistice and demilitarized zone, but it hasn't been settled.

The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussain is one of the few examples of a war of conquest. The previous Iran-Iraq war started over a border dispute but was really more about Saddam trying to overthrow the new revolutionary theocracy in Iran which he viewed as an existential threat to his own rule in Iraq. The fear that Islamic revolution would spread across the border to Iraq's very large Shia minority.

What Russia is attempting to do in Ukraine is very much of a different nature. It is more or less identical to what Nazi Germany attempted in WW2 with its wars of conquest and genocide. And the Russians in 2022 are more or less behaving the same way that the Germans did in Ukraine in 1942.

[Josh]

I just demonstrated that what you call the Ukraine was part of the unitary nation of “Russia” from 1500-1990. It is a bit absurd to call it a “war of conquest” (although to be clear I don’t support war at all for any reason).

It is completely absurd to act as if Ukraine’s borders as an independent country were drawn at the end of WWII. They weren’t. The USSR was a unitary, sovereign nation-state, its internal organisation notwithstanding.

[Ken]

I just demonstrated that what you call the Ukraine was part of the unitary nation of “Russia” from 1500-1990. It is a bit absurd to call it a “war of conquest” (although to be clear I don’t support war at all for any reason).

It is completely absurd to act as if Ukraine’s borders as an independent country were drawn at the end of WWII. They weren’t. The USSR was a unitary, sovereign nation-state, its internal organisation notwithstanding.

It absolutely wasn't a unitary nation-state.

It was a colonial power and empire in the exactly same way that Britain ruled over India and half of Africa. Or France ruled over Algeria and Indochina.

The USSR was more or less the successor to the Imperial Russian Empire and contained many different nations. It was in no way a unitary nation-state. The fact that without exception all these different nations wanted to leave in the 1990s should tell you this.

[Josh]

The USSR was more or less the successor to the Imperial Russian Empire and contained many different nations. It was in no way a unitary nation-state. The fact that without exception all these different nations wanted to leave in the 1990s should tell you this.

Is America a unitary nation-state?

Or did it have a nation that wanted to leave in the 1860s?