Housing & Homeless Problem

[mike]

I had a phone call the other evening from a local woman who will be homeless this Friday, as she is being evicted. She wants to rent an apartment from me, which is technically newly available although we had already decided to put it back on short-term rental. I assume she will be literally on the street or living in her car, unless she can avail herself of some sort of government-sponsored housing. She is being evicted for lack of maintaining her property, and for accumulating debris, causing the landlord to lose his fire insurance. She has health problems, and I am acquainted with folks who gave her their family's stimulus funds in order to pay for her eye problems. She chose to spend the money on other things. As I understand it, she refuses to accept advice of any kind. Her track record makes it extremely unlikely that anyone, myself included, will rent to her going forward.

It is hard enough getting housing when you actually have good credit or a good tenant record, and with this kind of a record, you basically run up against a brick wall.

I hope there is some kind of public housing available for her. The house trailer she had up to the present was reasonable in cost, and the landlord is a reasonable person who I know is very easy to work with. It appears she squandered a potentially good living arrangement. Yes, even people like this need a home. I don't have a problem with the government subsidizing housing for people like this. I will gladly see tax revenue going toward providing shelter for the homeless. However, it may have to be a home not of their own choosing. Putting homeless people in concentrated subsidized or public housing causes its own issues; however, what else are you going to do?

[Josh]

Obviously mental illness is in play here. The problem we face is that mentally ill people are free to go and act crazy, and their families can't do anything to stop them.

[mike]

Obviously mental illness is in play here. The problem we face is that mentally ill people are free to go and act crazy, and their families can't do anything to stop them.

Yes but it’s not only mental illness that’s the problem. It’s also sometimes simply bad moral character. This person is smart and manipulative and persuasive. A lot of people make bad decisions without being driven by some sort of mental disorder. (Unless you want to characterize all bad and unwise choices and behavior as being a mental disorder.) Some people are homeless because they are insane. Some are because their own bad choices have caught up with them and nobody will just give them a place to stay. People eventually run out of other people to take advantage of.

[QuietlyListening]

My husband volunteered at the one local Christian homeless shelter a year ago. He was finding, as he talked to some of the men, among the homeless for mental health, poor choices, drugs, alcohol, increasingly men (and women) who have jobs but the job doesn't pay enough for housing. Housing is expensive in our area. Crazy expensive for places that aren't even that nice. When I worked for hospice we had a few patients who were in housing that only had out houses and no workable indoor plumbing. And you run into the conundrum that if the people renting are reported the family loses even that housing. Not saying that housing is good, just that it's a roof over their heads.

We live in a rural area and there are all kinds of zoning laws about types of housing or housing at all throughout the county.

It's a problem that isn't going away and the solution is a big ?

[Josh]

Yes but it’s not only mental illness that’s the problem. It’s also sometimes simply bad moral character. This person is smart and manipulative and persuasive. A lot of people make bad decisions without being driven by some sort of mental disorder. (Unless you want to characterize all bad and unwise choices and behavior as being a mental disorder.) Some people are homeless because they are insane. Some are because their own bad choices have caught up with them and nobody will just give them a place to stay. People eventually run out of other people to take advantage of.

The open question, then, is what is to be done with people who are smart, manipulative, persuasive, and of bad moral character.

I, for one, think they should face consequences of their own actions, and one of those consequences should not be that they have a right to start occupying my sidewalk or nearby park.

[Josh]

We live in a rural area and there are all kinds of zoning laws about types of housing or housing at all throughout the county.

It's a problem that isn't going away and the solution is a big ?

By land area, most of America doesn't have zoning. Lack of zoning doesn't lead to some kind of paradise, but it does mean you can build whatever sub-standard structure you want to. The road I live on has some very questionable single-wide trailers, old houses with bad foundations, and people who don't bother to keep a working septic system. I'm not exactly sure how any of that is a good thing or will help reduce homelessness.

Will it really improve the cities and suburbs to say people can build whatever they want regardless of zoning, building codes, sewer/sanitation safety regulations, and so on?

[Ernie]

I, for one, think they should face consequences of their own actions, and one of those consequences should not be that they have a right to start occupying my sidewalk or nearby park.

I'm not aware of any place in the US that does not have a worker shortage. There probably are some, but not many.
So that means these folks could find some land in a moderate climate they could rent, put up some tents, and get a job there. I suppose a mayor or governor could start offering these folks free one-way bus rides to these areas with "affordable housing". If Abraham did it for over a hundred years, they should be able to do it for a good long time as well.

[mike]

Yes but it’s not only mental illness that’s the problem. It’s also sometimes simply bad moral character. This person is smart and manipulative and persuasive. A lot of people make bad decisions without being driven by some sort of mental disorder. (Unless you want to characterize all bad and unwise choices and behavior as being a mental disorder.) Some people are homeless because they are insane. Some are because their own bad choices have caught up with them and nobody will just give them a place to stay. People eventually run out of other people to take advantage of.

The open question, then, is what is to be done with people who are smart, manipulative, persuasive, and of bad moral character.

I, for one, think they should face consequences of their own actions, and one of those consequences should not be that they have a right to start occupying my sidewalk or nearby park.

I don’t disagree. I think society has an interest in the government somehow providing a place for them though. Group homes, small basic apartments, things of that nature.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Yes but it’s not only mental illness that’s the problem. It’s also sometimes simply bad moral character. This person is smart and manipulative and persuasive. A lot of people make bad decisions without being driven by some sort of mental disorder. (Unless you want to characterize all bad and unwise choices and behavior as being a mental disorder.) Some people are homeless because they are insane. Some are because their own bad choices have caught up with them and nobody will just give them a place to stay. People eventually run out of other people to take advantage of.

The open question, then, is what is to be done with people who are smart, manipulative, persuasive, and of bad moral character.

I, for one, think they should face consequences of their own actions, and one of those consequences should not be that they have a right to start occupying my sidewalk or nearby park.

I don’t disagree. I think society has an interest in the government somehow providing a place for them though. Group homes, small basic apartments, things of that nature.

When I was younger, they were kept in institutions. They were not the best place, but they got 3 meals and a place to sleep. Than, there was a move to deinstutionalize them. Now they are out on the streets. All they gave them is a month supply of their meds, and an address report to for outpatient care. Saved the government a fortune. I can't help but wonder if this was the wrong thing to do, freedom, yes, but at a horrible price.

I still live in the area I grew up in. I see someone who was in one of these places growing up. Local merchants feed him, I don't know where he sleeps. He generally runs if anyone approaches him. I wonder if he would be better off back in the institution .

[Ken]

We live in a rural area and there are all kinds of zoning laws about types of housing or housing at all throughout the county.

It's a problem that isn't going away and the solution is a big ?

By land area, most of America doesn't have zoning. Lack of zoning doesn't lead to some kind of paradise, but it does mean you can build whatever sub-standard structure you want to. The road I live on has some very questionable single-wide trailers, old houses with bad foundations, and people who don't bother to keep a working septic system. I'm not exactly sure how any of that is a good thing or will help reduce homelessness.

Will it really improve the cities and suburbs to say people can build whatever they want regardless of zoning, building codes, sewer/sanitation safety regulations, and so on?

Much of America is more or less uninhabitable due to lack of water, lack of power, lack of sanitation, and/or lack of private ownership. Also lack of any means of making a living. Many western states are largely public lands. So it really isn't meaningful to say that there isn't zoning in rural west texas or eastern Oregon where you can't build anyway due to lack of water, road access, power, etc. Some people still try to do it and it usually ends in frustration.

The real question is cost and availability of housing near population centers where the economy provides meaningful employment. And most of those areas do indeed have strict zoning. And the places that don't such as Houston have equivalent non-zoning restrictions such as HOAs and restrictive deeds. Much of the rest of the world doesn't have our ultra-high cost of housing. In Tokyo, for example, rents are about 1/4 the price in New York City. Sure there are many tiny apartments in Tokyo but even on a square foot basis they are much cheaper. Zoning in Tokyo is far less restrictive than in typical American cities and large numbers of small apartments are easy to build.

Zoning is a completely separate issue from building codes, sewer/sanitation safety regulations, etc. Zoning is basically nothing more than zones on map that specify minimum lot sizes, minimum square footage, and the number of residences that are allowed per lot. If you up-zone an area from single family to multi-family that doesn't change any other regulations such as building or sanitation codes.