Mikhail Gorbachev

[Neto]

The USSR was unsustainable without military repression on an absolutely massive scale. Which itself was not sustainable.

Most of the non-Russian peoples of the USSR were very much ready for Glastnost and have made the best of it from the Baltic states in the north to the Caucasus states in the south like Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.

The Ukraine war is essentially an effort to turn back the clock.

Yes, "ready for it", but in a completely different way than I meant. They were ready to take advantage of it to break away from the Soviet state, but not ready to make use of it in the way Gorbachev intended, as a transition of the USSR to a less totalitarian (read repressive) state into something more democratic.

I guess it depends on whether you view the USSR as a democratic state that peoples and populations willingly joined. Or whether you view it as Russian imperialism in another guise. No different for example, from British imperialism in India or French imperialism in Indochina.

The USSR was NOT a democratic state. However, I think that had Gorbochev's plan succeeded, it might have BECOME that. I thought I was clear on that, but this is a clarification for what I said earlier.

[Ken]

Yes, "ready for it", but in a completely different way than I meant. They were ready to take advantage of it to break away from the Soviet state, but not ready to make use of it in the way Gorbachev intended, as a transition of the USSR to a less totalitarian (read repressive) state into something more democratic.

I guess it depends on whether you view the USSR as a democratic state that peoples and populations willingly joined. Or whether you view it as Russian imperialism in another guise. No different for example, from British imperialism in India or French imperialism in Indochina.

The USSR was NOT a democratic state. However, I think that had Gorbochev's plan succeeded, it might have BECOME that. I thought I was clear on that, but this is a clarification for what I said earlier.

But it ended democratically. Every single republic that spun off as independent did so through democratic processes with an independence referendum. So in essence it was democracy that dismantled the USSR.

For example...

Lithuania voted 93% in favor of independence in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Lith ... referendum
Ukraine voted 92% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum
Georgia voted over 99% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Geor ... referendum
Kazakhstan voted 77% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kaza ... referendum

There wasn't a single non-Russian republic that wanted to remain unified with Russia as part of the USSR. And that was all democratically determined.

[Neto]

I guess it depends on whether you view the USSR as a democratic state that peoples and populations willingly joined. Or whether you view it as Russian imperialism in another guise. No different for example, from British imperialism in India or French imperialism in Indochina.

The USSR was NOT a democratic state. However, I think that had Gorbochev's plan succeeded, it might have BECOME that. I thought I was clear on that, but this is a clarification for what I said earlier.

But it ended democratically. Every single republic that spun off as independent did so through democratic processes with an independence referendum. So in essence it was democracy that dismantled the USSR.

For example...

Lithuania voted 93% in favor of independence in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Lith ... referendum
Ukraine voted 92% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum
Georgia voted over 99% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Geor ... referendum
Kazakhstan voted 77% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kaza ... referendum

There wasn't a single non-Russian republic that wanted to remain unified with Russia as part of the USSR. And that was all democratically determined.

I'm not saying that I think that Gorbachev's vision for the USSR was a better one than what came about - I don't. I think that most (if not all) people groups want self determination. I'm just saying that he had a vision for change in the USSR that would have been a vast improvement over the previous 7 decades. (Except that I think that his vision was better than what Russia has become. They are the most obvious example of those who could not handle the change his policies brought about. But enough of politics for me. I just think that Gorbachev was a great statesman, deserving of respect.)

[MaxPC]

I agree with you, Neto. I watched his efforts first-hand. I remember the confetti opinions about his efforts to bring in a capitalism based economy. I remember him as someone who put first the average man in the street. He decried the chronic shortages under socialist/communist bureaucracies. He saw the travesty of the average wage earner having to stand hours in line for a loaf of bread or a roll of toilet paper then having to pay exhorbitant prices to purchase them. He saw firsthand the failures of socialism and communism not only in his own confederation but in the history of all governments. He was a rare gentleman: educated, knowledgeable, and genuinely empathetic with the citizens’ troubles. He put people first, not his party’s agenda and talking points.

Whether his efforts are considered successful or failures, God will judge him for trying to do what is right for the Everyman and I personally feel that God will view his efforts kindly.

[Ken]

The USSR was NOT a democratic state. However, I think that had Gorbochev's plan succeeded, it might have BECOME that. I thought I was clear on that, but this is a clarification for what I said earlier.

But it ended democratically. Every single republic that spun off as independent did so through democratic processes with an independence referendum. So in essence it was democracy that dismantled the USSR.

For example...

Lithuania voted 93% in favor of independence in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Lith ... referendum
Ukraine voted 92% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum
Georgia voted over 99% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Geor ... referendum
Kazakhstan voted 77% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kaza ... referendum

There wasn't a single non-Russian republic that wanted to remain unified with Russia as part of the USSR. And that was all democratically determined.

I'm not saying that I think that Gorbachev's vision for the USSR was a better one than what came about - I don't. I think that most (if not all) people groups want self determination. I'm just saying that he had a vision for change in the USSR that would have been a vast improvement over the previous 7 decades. (Except that I think that his vision was better than what Russia has become. They are the most obvious example of those who could not handle the change his policies brought about. But enough of politics for me. I just think that Gorbachev was a great statesman, deserving of respect.)

I think there was change happening along three different axes simultaneously and the ones we focused on at the time were perhaps not the most important ones.

There was change happening along the Communism - Socialism - Free Market Capitalism axis. I think that is largely what western observers in the US and western Europe were fixated on. The dismantling of state-owned enterprises and the entering of capitalism into the USSR in the form of McDonalds, Levis, Nikes, etc. All manner of western businessmen and corporations were flooding into the USSR to feast on the remains.

There was change happening along the autocracy vs democracy axis. Which I think we paid less attention to whether or not state, local, and national elections were happening. There was a failed coup around the time of Boris Yeltsin and I don't remember all the details. But it was a very real struggle between military dictatorship and democracy that ultimately resulted in Putin.

There was also change along the centralized imperial empire vs. regional and ethnic self-determination axis. This is probably the axis that has been the most consequential over the past several decades with all the local independence movements from Czechnia to Lithuania to Georgia to Ukraine. But it was probably the axis that got the least attention and focus within the west. But it something we should have been paying more attention to especially with all the examples of anticolonial wars in the 50s and 60s from Algeria to Vietnam.

I think Gorbachev was focused on managing change along the first two axes and was overtaken by the third.

[Josh]

Lithuania voted 93% in favor of independence in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Lith ... referendum
Ukraine voted 92% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum
Georgia voted over 99% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Geor ... referendum
Kazakhstan voted 77% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kaza ... referendum

There wasn't a single non-Russian republic that wanted to remain unified with Russia as part of the USSR. And that was all democratically determined.

Would you mind adding Crimea to your list?

[Ken]

Lithuania voted 93% in favor of independence in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Lith ... referendum
Ukraine voted 92% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukra ... referendum
Georgia voted over 99% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Geor ... referendum
Kazakhstan voted 77% in favor of independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kaza ... referendum

There wasn't a single non-Russian republic that wanted to remain unified with Russia as part of the USSR. And that was all democratically determined.

Would you mind adding Crimea to your list?

You can drill down on the Ukraine link above and see the vote for each individual oblast of Ukraine. Every single individual oblast in Ukraine voted in favor of independence INCLUDING Crimea.

[Josh]

You can drill down on the Ukraine link above and see the vote for each individual oblast of Ukraine. Every single individual oblast in Ukraine voted in favor of independence INCLUDING Crimea.

In case you aren't aware, Crimea held a referendum on independence more recently.

[Ken]

You can drill down on the Ukraine link above and see the vote for each individual oblast of Ukraine. Every single individual oblast in Ukraine voted in favor of independence INCLUDING Crimea.

In case you aren't aware, Crimea held a referendum on independence more recently.

Yes, an utterly meaningless and illegal one (under the Ukrainian constitution) the results of which were completely fraudulent because: (1) the Russians chased out or deported many hundreds of thousands of ethnic Ukrainians through persecution, and (2) imported many hundreds of thousands of Russian nationals to take their place. Of course many of them are now fleeing back to Russia now that the war is reaching into Crimea.

Last spring I had a student from Crimea (Ukrainian mother, Russian father) who's family had to flee persecution when the Russians arrived in 2014. They fled to Moldova in 2014 and more recently made it to the US. Russian state security officers basically showed up at their home in Crimea in 2014 and took their house and told them to leave if they valued their lives.

So if you are giving any credence to any Russian-run referendum in Crimea or anywhere else you are just gullibly falling victim to Russian propaganda.

[Josh]

So if you are giving any credence to any Russian-run referendum in Crimea or anywhere else you are just gullibly falling victim to Russian propaganda.

Is there a reason you give credence to the USSR-run referendums in the rest of the USSR, then?