Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

[Ken]

My wife is outspokenly anti-organic food because she believes it’s a marketing ploy to charge more for food. Is there authentically organic food out there? Yes, but a lot of organic food in the grocery store still uses herbicides and pesticides, just the ones that meets the USDA’s production standards for “organic.”

I don't think it is necessarily a marketing ploy. But you have to be intelligent. Not all foods are equal. For example, it is probably more useful to buy organic fruit and produce that you do not peel such as strawberries and lettuce where the food you eat is exposed directly to whatever chemicals are applied. In contrast to fruits with thick peels like bananas and oranges where any chemicals on the surface of the fruit will be removed and discarded before eating. So if I am going to pay more for organic fruit I will spend it on strawberries, blueberries, apples, etc. Rather than bananas, limes, and oranges.

As for herbicides and pesticides? Yes there are organic forms of pest control such as neem oil and diatomaceous earth. I'm not totally up on the current most modern methods of organic pest controls to know if there are any forms of pesticides certified for use in organic farms that are considered problematic from a human health standpoint.

At least there is a process for certifying organic farms and standards for them to follow which would not be the case absent any regulations. If that were the case then the term "organic" would have no meaning at all and would just be another meaningless marketing term like "lite" or "nutritious"

Now that the market in organic foods is growing, big agribusiness is moving into the space with a vengeance. But I expect that is inevitable and to be expected. I would rather they at least have standards and regulations to follow before calling themselves "organic" than the alternative which is no regulations. And it is probably a good trend if it means less chemical use by big agribusiness.

[Josh]

Okay, I'll use the terms "locally grown", "traditionally raised" and so on instead of "organic" if that makes you feel better.

The entire point here is to avoid buying things that are mass produced from the big, expensive, big-box stores. I don't think healthy food comes from Wal-Mart. Do you disagree?

[Ken]

Okay, I'll use the terms "locally grown", "traditionally raised" and so on instead of "organic" if that makes you feel better.

The entire point here is to avoid buying things that are mass produced from the big, expensive, big-box stores. I don't think healthy food comes from Wal-Mart. Do you disagree?

I don't think you can generalize to that extent. There is plenty of healthy food available at Wal-Mart and also unhealthy food available at Amish roadside stands.

[ken_sylvania]

My wife is outspokenly anti-organic food because she believes it’s a marketing ploy to charge more for food. Is there authentically organic food out there? Yes, but a lot of organic food in the grocery store still uses herbicides and pesticides, just the ones that meets the USDA’s production standards for “organic.”

I don't think it is necessarily a marketing ploy. But you have to be intelligent. Not all foods are equal. For example, it is probably more useful to buy organic fruit and produce that you do not peel such as strawberries and lettuce where the food you eat is exposed directly to whatever chemicals are applied. In contrast to fruits with thick peels like bananas and oranges where any chemicals on the surface of the fruit will be removed and discarded before eating. So if I am going to pay more for organic fruit I will spend it on strawberries, blueberries, apples, etc. Rather than bananas, limes, and oranges.

As for herbicides and pesticides? Yes there are organic forms of pest control such as neem oil and diatomaceous earth. I'm not totally up on the current most modern methods of organic pest controls to know if there are any forms of pesticides certified for use in organic farms that are considered problematic from a human health standpoint.

At least there is a process for certifying organic farms and standards for them to follow which would not be the case absent any regulations. If that were the case then the term "organic" would have no meaning at all and would just be another meaningless marketing term like "lite" or "nutritious"

Now that the market in organic foods is growing, big agribusiness is moving into the space with a vengeance. But I expect that is inevitable and to be expected. I would rather they at least have standards and regulations to follow before calling themselves "organic" than the alternative which is no regulations. And it is probably a good trend if it means less chemical use by big agribusiness.

Um, here in the US even the non-organic growers, farmers, etc have regulations they have to follow. The alternative to "organic" is not "no regulations." Oregon Dairies is an example of a huge corporation that figured out well how use the organic regulations as a tool to make more profit regardless of whether it made better food.

[Josh]

Okay, I'll use the terms "locally grown", "traditionally raised" and so on instead of "organic" if that makes you feel better.

The entire point here is to avoid buying things that are mass produced from the big, expensive, big-box stores. I don't think healthy food comes from Wal-Mart. Do you disagree?

I don't think you can generalize to that extent. There is plenty of healthy food available at Wal-Mart and also unhealthy food available at Amish roadside stands.

This is like arguing that, technically, one can eat a balanced, healthful diet entirely from McDonald's.

[Ken]

My wife is outspokenly anti-organic food because she believes it’s a marketing ploy to charge more for food. Is there authentically organic food out there? Yes, but a lot of organic food in the grocery store still uses herbicides and pesticides, just the ones that meets the USDA’s production standards for “organic.”

I don't think it is necessarily a marketing ploy. But you have to be intelligent. Not all foods are equal. For example, it is probably more useful to buy organic fruit and produce that you do not peel such as strawberries and lettuce where the food you eat is exposed directly to whatever chemicals are applied. In contrast to fruits with thick peels like bananas and oranges where any chemicals on the surface of the fruit will be removed and discarded before eating. So if I am going to pay more for organic fruit I will spend it on strawberries, blueberries, apples, etc. Rather than bananas, limes, and oranges.

As for herbicides and pesticides? Yes there are organic forms of pest control such as neem oil and diatomaceous earth. I'm not totally up on the current most modern methods of organic pest controls to know if there are any forms of pesticides certified for use in organic farms that are considered problematic from a human health standpoint.

At least there is a process for certifying organic farms and standards for them to follow which would not be the case absent any regulations. If that were the case then the term "organic" would have no meaning at all and would just be another meaningless marketing term like "lite" or "nutritious"

Now that the market in organic foods is growing, big agribusiness is moving into the space with a vengeance. But I expect that is inevitable and to be expected. I would rather they at least have standards and regulations to follow before calling themselves "organic" than the alternative which is no regulations. And it is probably a good trend if it means less chemical use by big agribusiness.

Um, here in the US even the non-organic growers, farmers, etc have regulations they have to follow. The alternative to "organic" is not "no regulations." Oregon Dairies is an example of a huge corporation that figured out well how use the organic regulations as a tool to make more profit regardless of whether it made better food.

You missed my point. I wasn't arguing that the absence of organic regulations means that food is unregulated. My point was that the absence of organic regulations would render the term "organic" absolutely meaningless because anyone could claim the label for anything they are doing.

If you want the label "organic" to actually mean something then you have to have regulations to specify what it means and what methods must be used in order to claim the label "organic". And that is why it was actually the organic food industry that sought such definitions and regulations.

Is it perfect? No, of course not. One should always have a healthy skepticism. And yes, large corporations are obviously pushing the envelope as they move into that space. It would be naïve to expect anything else.

[Judas Maccabeus]

My wife is outspokenly anti-organic food because she believes it’s a marketing ploy to charge more for food.

Yes, basically. I agree with your wife.

Some food is simply not growable in a pesticide free world. Try Squash.

I find it a marketing ploy as well.

[Josh]

Some food is simply not growable in a pesticide free world. Try Squash.

I find it a marketing ploy as well.

Is it a good idea to grow food which is only possible by flooding waterways with toxic chemicals?

Long term, this leads to things like the Aral Sea disaster. I don't think bigger deserts is a good thing.

[Ken]

Okay, I'll use the terms "locally grown", "traditionally raised" and so on instead of "organic" if that makes you feel better.

The entire point here is to avoid buying things that are mass produced from the big, expensive, big-box stores. I don't think healthy food comes from Wal-Mart. Do you disagree?

I don't think you can generalize to that extent. There is plenty of healthy food available at Wal-Mart and also unhealthy food available at Amish roadside stands.

This is like arguing that, technically, one can eat a balanced, healthful diet entirely from McDonald's.

Nonsense. You can probably find nearly any healthy recipe you want to cook and find reasonable ingredient choices at Wal-Mart. I recently cooked a meal of grilled wild Alaska sockeye salmon served with brown rice and roasted broccoli. I didn't shop at Wal-Mart but I have no doubt that I could have gotten all of those ingredients there.

I dislike Wal-Mart for a long list of reasons and tend to avoid it. But I will allow that the Wal-Marts around here do have a reasonable grocery selection.

Meanwhile the Amish store near where my relatives live in Belleville PA is full of junk food, candies, and heavily processed foods. They just buy it in bulk and repackage it in their own plain baggies.

[Josh]

Actually, quite a few people have done analyses of "food deserts" created by mass-scale stores like this and how it eventually leads to much less availability of things like fresh produce. The problem where lots of people only have affordable access to unhealthy, heavily processed food is very well documented.

That's why trying to shut someone down like Miller is so misguided.