Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
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JohnHurt

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by JohnHurt »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:42 pm
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:42 pmBovine TB is a thing in the third world, and it is somewhat different than TB from a human source. IF milk is not the vector, what is? If you undo regulation, will you continue to have well kept farms and healthy animals? Most of us city folk can’t visit the farms that produce our food.
Perhaps you should. I visit the farm I get my milk from, for example, in order to make sure I'm happy with how they're treating their animals and so forth.

And perhaps those of us who do should be exempt from having to put up with laws set up to ensure giant, filthy commercial operations can continue to sell their half-poisoned food to urbanites who "can't" visit the farms that produce their food.
Josh,

Yes, we should be exempt from these laws, by our choice, and by our own free will to accept the consequences for our actions.

Apparently, these "city slickers" have never been to a stockyard and seen what is being fed to the animals they will eventually eat.

The stockyard will take the refuse from the restaurant industry, like old pizza crusts, junk food, anything remotely edible, and throw it into the slop for the cows to eat to fatten them up before they are killed. They fatten them up, and as long as the animal can stagger across the weighing scale, they will process them.

Remember "Mad Cow Disease"? They were taking old cows they could not process and grinding them up into a feed pellet to be fed to other cows. There was a "prion" or crystal disease that evades high heat when they turn a cow into pellets that transmits the Mad Cow disease from the dead cow to the cow that eats the pellets. Humans can also be infected by prions from eating squirrels and other unclean animals.

Leviticus 11 gives a list of the animals men should eat, and those that we should avoid. The general idea is that men should not eat scavengers or predators, as they concentrate toxins from the animals or unclean things that they eat. Other unclean animals, like squirrels, shellfish, and rabbits, carry diseases that can infect humans.

"You are what you eat", so it would reason, "You are what 'it' ate". Whatever a an animal eats, if you eat that animal, you have eaten the same thing.

That is why grass fed beef is so much better than store-bought beef.

I remember going to an Amish farm and seeing two pigs in a large pen, without a blade of grass in it. They were sniffing each other's rears. When one pig defecated, the other one immediately ate it, and then the two pigs fought over the defecation. I don't eat pig meat. It is gross. And pigs are a scavenger that collect toxins.

What "modern farming" has done, as it is designed by the money hungry people that run the FDA, is they have turned ordinary cows into scavengers. They have made an "clean" animal into one that is "unclean". They have turned a cow into a scavenger that eats junk.

But try it yourself. Go buy some grass fed ground beef from a local farmer, and some cheap hamburger from your local "big box" store. Put them on the grill and see which one oozes the most grease, or whatever that stuff really is. Then put both samples on a plate and feed it to your family, and ask them which one they like the best.

You are eating what the cow ate, and for the city slicker, they don't know, and don't want to know, what that is. I love grass fed beef and lamb, it is very healthy.

Yes, we need to be able to "opt out" of these ridiculous big box farming projects. When they arrest a small farmer, they are attacking all of us. No one has complained about this Amish farmer or his products, only the FDA. And they are doing it to "send a message" to all of the other farmers.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

JohnHurt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:26 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:00 am
JohnHurt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:48 am
Ernie,

We sign a waiver for the government (and to protect the sellers) when we buy raw milk that the milk will only be used for animal consumption.

So you lie? Great idea for a christian.

J.M.
Exodus 1: (15) And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

(16) And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

(17) But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

(18) And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

(19) And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

(20) Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

(21) And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

I fear God. God blesses me because I fear Him and keep His Commandments.

Who do you fear?
Where do you see a biblical command to consume only raw milk? That is a preference on your part, not a biblical mandate.

J.M.
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Ken
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Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Ken »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:21 am
JohnHurt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:26 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:00 am

So you lie? Great idea for a christian.

J.M.
Exodus 1: (15) And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

(16) And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

(17) But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

(18) And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

(19) And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

(20) Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

(21) And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

I fear God. God blesses me because I fear Him and keep His Commandments.

Who do you fear?
Where do you see a biblical command to consume only raw milk? That is a preference on your part, not a biblical mandate.

J.M.
During Biblical times they were probably more likely to drink goat and sheep milk.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
barnhart
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Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by barnhart »

Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.
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Josh

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Josh »

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:13 am Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.
(For the record I disagreed with his decision.) This is not a case of “religious liberty”, except insofar as part of my religion is to feed myself and my neighbour and the sick and the hungry with nutritious, non-toxic food.
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Ernie

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Ernie »

JohnHurt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:03 amYes, we need to be able to "opt out" of these ridiculous big box farming projects. When they arrest a small farmer, they are attacking all of us. No one has complained about this Amish farmer or his products, only the FDA. And they are doing it to "send a message" to all of the other farmers.
The dispute is not Amish vs. big box. The dispute is not chemicals vs. chemicals. The dispute is Amish illegal vs. Amish legal.

There is a legal, inexpensive way for people to eat fresh, organic meat from the Amish (or whoever else for that matter.) We've talked about that in this thread already.
If there is a legal way to do things (that is perhaps safer for the general population than the illegal way of doing things), then we as Christians should be submissive to governors and kings.
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Ken
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Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Ken »

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:13 am Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.
In this society (and every modern society) we have a large number of health and safety regulations as well as lots of general design and organizational regulations to make or society function smoothly and efficiently.

In the area of construction we have a wide variety of building codes, permitting requirements, and zoning laws. They ensure that when you spend your life-savings on a house that it has been constructed properly. The electrical system is done properly so you won't have the house catching on fire. Lead paint isn't used on the walls to poison your children. The roof is properly constructed so it won't blow away in a hurricane or fall apart in an earthquake. Zoning laws make sure your neighbors can't put in a toxic waste incinerator, gravel quarry, or pig farm unless those are already permitted activities for that land. Do some people chafe against such restrictions? Yes, of course. People want to build yurts or tiny houses, or live on an RV on their lot. Or build an auxiliary dwelling unit for their mother-in-law. But there is a PROCESS by which people can seek waivers or changes to building codes to accommodate new things. It can be tedious and long. But that is what people do. If they go out and build an unpermitted building or violate zoning codes in some way they are likely to see it torn down and be fined.

It is the same in transportation. We have lots of rules and regulations for our highways. And auto manufacturers have all manner of safety and environmental/emissions requirements to follow. Cars today are tremendously safer than they were several generations ago. They are also far more efficient and pollute much less. Do people chafe against these restrictions? Yes, people put in radar detectors so they can evade speed limits. Reportedly a popular "menno" thing is to defeat the emissions requirements on diesel pickups. Can they often get away with it? Yes. Is it the socially responsible thing to do? No.

Producing food for commercial sale to the public is no different. Are there lots of food safety regulators for producers to follow? Yes. Are some of them inconvenient for small producers? No doubt. Yet there are tens of thousands of small farms and food producers around the country who manage to do so who are selling their products at roadside stands, farmers markets, restaurants, and local distributors. There are thousands of them in PA alone. There is a process by which small producers can seek exemptions and the HACCP program actually has a great deal of flexibility. I've dealt with it in the area of small scale commercial fisheries in Alaska. Small scale native fishermen selling salmon, crab, and halibut off the docks, to local restaurants, or shipping product south. But you actually have to take it seriously. You can't just decide to blow it all off and expect no consequences. Any more than you can expect to build your own house on a suburban lot with no permits or inspections. Even if everything you build is sound and safe.

And honestly none of this has anything to do with religion.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:27 pm
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:13 am Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.
In this society (and every modern society) we have a large number of health and safety regulations as well as lots of general design and organizational regulations to make or society function smoothly and efficiently.
... yet Americans are sicker and fatter and more obese than they've ever been. The life expectancy for men recently declined below age 70.

Real "smoothly and efficiently" you have there.

Face it - all these rules and regulations mostly have one effect: helping the rich get even richer and raising barriers of entry to small producers, and stamping out anyone who wants to do thinks with organic, traditional, old-fashioned ways. If there really was so much concern about food safety, then fast food restaurants would be illegal. Yet they aren't. They were, instead, classified as "essential businesses" during the pandemic - because, apparently, getting sodas and Big Macs is "essential".
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Sliceitup
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Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by Sliceitup »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:04 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:27 pm
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:13 am Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.
In this society (and every modern society) we have a large number of health and safety regulations as well as lots of general design and organizational regulations to make or society function smoothly and efficiently.
... yet Americans are sicker and fatter and more obese than they've ever been. The life expectancy for men recently declined below age 70.

Real "smoothly and efficiently" you have there.

Face it - all these rules and regulations mostly have one effect: helping the rich get even richer and raising barriers of entry to small producers, and stamping out anyone who wants to do thinks with organic, traditional, old-fashioned ways. If there really was so much concern about food safety, then fast food restaurants would be illegal. Yet they aren't. They were, instead, classified as "essential businesses" during the pandemic - because, apparently, getting sodas and Big Macs is "essential".
Your argument is a bit weak. If life expectancy is an indicator of whether rules and regulations are helpful or harmful then they would clearly be helpful. Life expectancy has risen throughout the 20 and 21st centuries. And we’ve had increasingly more food regulations.

The drop in life expectancy from 2019-2020 was due to Covid19. It was the largest year to year change in 70+ years. You can’t expect people to think that’s tied to food regulations that have been in existence for decades.
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ohio jones

Re: Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

Post by ohio jones »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:27 pm In the area of construction we have a wide variety of building codes, permitting requirements, and zoning laws. They ensure that when you spend your life-savings on a house that it has been constructed properly.
Right. :roll:
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