Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Josh

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:00 pmYou made the exact claim that "In “capitalist” countries like America nobody goes hungry."

I'm simply pointing out that this is wrong. It doesn't matter what the causes are. They are complex and varied. But capitalism isn't a cure for hunger or any other social problem.
Okay, let me restate: Nobody goes hungry in America due to economic circumstances or economic systems.

If children to go hungry, it is categorically do child abuse, usually caused by drug addiction and almost always found in a situation other than two parents of the child married to each other.

Want to prevent children going hungry? Make sure that children aren't conceived out of wedlock.
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Robert
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

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Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:39 pm
Robert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:23 pmThe concept of socialism is that a few should dictate what the rest do. This forum is a form of socialism. Ken, you are one of people who do not accept the thread guidelines. You want socialism, but will not conform to the policies set up
That is not in fact the definition of socialism contained within the series of articles upon which this thread is based. Not even close. Did you not read the articles? My views are actually somewhat close to the author's views although I would state things differently.

I was simply pushing back on Josh's assertion that there is no hunger in America or in "capitalist societies". That is simply not true.
How is not not how it functions? Share with me how that does not happen in socialism.

Yes, I read the articles to the best of my ability. I respected the request of the OP. I try to stay on topic, because I submit to the OP "authority."

Please share with me how you see socialism working in short synopsis. Not the definition, but how it functions. Please do it in a few sentences.
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Ken
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:06 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:39 pm
Robert wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:23 pmThe concept of socialism is that a few should dictate what the rest do. This forum is a form of socialism. Ken, you are one of people who do not accept the thread guidelines. You want socialism, but will not conform to the policies set up
That is not in fact the definition of socialism contained within the series of articles upon which this thread is based. Not even close. Did you not read the articles? My views are actually somewhat close to the author's views although I would state things differently.

I was simply pushing back on Josh's assertion that there is no hunger in America or in "capitalist societies". That is simply not true.
How is not not how it functions? Share with me how that does not happen in socialism.

Yes, I read the articles to the best of my ability. I respected the request of the OP. I try to stay on topic, because I submit to the OP "authority."

Please share with me how you see socialism working in short synopsis. Not the definition, but how it functions. Please do it in a few sentences.
Quoting from the very first page of the article

Socialism: “an economic system characterized by
social ownership of the means of production.” In
other words, the resources are owned and managed
by and for the benefit of a group (family, business,
local community, country.


It has nothing to do with dictating what you do or don't do with your life. As the article noted, that is politics not economics.

As noted in the article, the US is really a mixed economy. Some aspects of the economy are socialized, others are not. Examples of sectors of the economy that are socialized would be:

Public health programs (Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA progam)
Public education and public universities
Public crop insurance and price support programs for farmers and public flood insurance
Farmers Co-op grain elevators
Public highways, bridges, airports, canals, waterways, and navigation systems (GPS)
Social Security
Public fire departments, wildlands fire fighting, and EMT services
The Post Office
Public lands management (Forest Service, BLM, Parks Service, Bureau of Ocean Energy Management)
FEMA
Some of the Internet
Many public utilities

None of that has anything to do with "telling you how to live your life" other than the obligation to pay your taxes or fees to support these programs. And many of these programs were put into place exactly because "capitalism" or the "free market" failed to adequately provide these services through the private sector.
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Ken
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:02 pmUltimately, this is not about "hunger". This is about parents who choose to abuse drugs and thus abuse their children as well. The solution here is harsh penalties for drug abuse, including both pushers and dealers and end users.
and
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:02 pmOkay, let me restate: Nobody goes hungry in America due to economic circumstances or economic systems.

If children to go hungry, it is categorically do child abuse, usually caused by drug addiction and almost always found in a situation other than two parents of the child married to each other.

Want to prevent children going hungry? Make sure that children aren't conceived out of wedlock.

So essentially you want a capitalist police state then?
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Josh

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:02 pmUltimately, this is not about "hunger". This is about parents who choose to abuse drugs and thus abuse their children as well. The solution here is harsh penalties for drug abuse, including both pushers and dealers and end users.
and
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:02 pmOkay, let me restate: Nobody goes hungry in America due to economic circumstances or economic systems.

If children to go hungry, it is categorically do child abuse, usually caused by drug addiction and almost always found in a situation other than two parents of the child married to each other.

Want to prevent children going hungry? Make sure that children aren't conceived out of wedlock.

So essentially you want a capitalist police state then?
If your goal is to end child hunger, you’ll have to do something about drugs, out of wedlock pregnancy, and alcoholism. You’re the one that set the goalposts there.
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Josh

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

Socialism: “an economic system characterized by
social ownership of the means of production.” In
other words, the resources are owned and managed
by and for the benefit of a group (family, business,
local community, country.
By this standard, the entire world is socialist. Nearly all property is held in family, business, local community, or country form. (Not much wealth is held merely by individuals in their own name.)
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nett
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by nett »

I thought it was an informative series. The perspective given on the history of Bolivia was interesting.

I think it might be misguided to discuss the "wealth creating" merits of capitalism, because the only examples of capitalism we have to study have all been based on unsustainable resource exploitation leading to the creation of "capital". Although, you could say the "capital" was already there, just in the ground.

The Bolivian silver mines were a perfect example of this effect.

In the US, you first had European crop rotation techniques applied to 3 million square miles of extremely nutrient dense, virgin soil. This created a food surplus, enabling the US to grow rapidly by attracting the most industrious immigrants, and incentivizing large families that could labor on productive farms. Slavery may or not have been a factor in this wealth. I tend to think it was counter productive, but I don't know.

In the next stage of the industrial revolution, you had the oil boom, which was again massive, unsustainable resource extraction. Capitalism definitely did mobilize these resources, and was able to exploit a class of very productive laborers, but this only lasts for a few generations, before people stop being willing to work.

You can see this happening in realtime with the boom of factories that hire almost exclusively from the Amish. The labor is cheap, plentiful, and reliable. It makes the factory owner gobs of money and/or allows for explosive growth, which is universally seen as a divine stamp of approval of the "good management" of the company. Unfortunately, the work is dehumanizing, and will destabilize the community if it continues to be allowed. For example, Weaver leather is already looking at outsourcing more to China, as the labor pool of childless Amish girls gets exhausted.

My point is that capitalism gets more credit than it should. It's not an inherently productive system, it just mobilizes unsustainable resource extraction better than any other system. That's not a positive thing in my mind.

I noticed almost right away, that Mike is arguing from what I would say is a mistaken philosophical position. He gives this hint early on:
Taxes are another form of socialism. Since humans by nature tend to care only about themselves, governments are forced to tax the population to make sure that publicly needed services are funded.
This is straight Hobbesian moral philosophy, and I think it's a load of nonsense. People by nature care about a lot more than just themselves.

Hobbes' Leviathan and social contract theory rose to prominence at a convenient time. The middles ages, distinguished by almost 1000 years of relative sustainability were coming to and end, freed from the burden of the common good as governed by the Church, it was becoming realistic to extract natural resources at a destructive rate never before seen in history. His theories were a perfect whitewashing of the greed that abounded in the elite as simply being "human nature", instead of condemning it for the mortal sin that it is.

Hobbes' materialism did not fully grip the western world until shortly after WW2, at which point our fate was sealed for good. It's been a good ride...for some.

To put it simply, I don't think capitalism "works" by harnessing human greed and laundering it into virtuous wealth. Capitalism just shows up when there are resources to extract, be they labor, or material. The "human nature" argument just serves to alleviate the guilt felt by the exploiters as they are condemned by their conscience. Confession and penance would be a better prescription for this malady than capitalism.
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Ken
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:10 pm
Socialism: “an economic system characterized by
social ownership of the means of production.” In
other words, the resources are owned and managed
by and for the benefit of a group (family, business,
local community, country.
By this standard, the entire world is socialist. Nearly all property is held in family, business, local community, or country form. (Not much wealth is held merely by individuals in their own name.)
This thread is to discuss the series of articles written by Mike Atnip and published in the Plain News. That was his definition that he set out as the framework for the rest of his discussion, not mine.

If you want to set up some other strawman definition of "socialism" to knock down. Go ahead. But doing that isn't responsive to the actual article provided by Ernie for our discussion.
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Josh

Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Josh »

I thought Atnip’s definitions were terrible, but they didn’t seem to be used for the rest do what he wrote which was not too bad.
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Robert
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Re: Socialism Vs. Capitalism

Post by Robert »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:27 pm Quoting from the very first page of the article

Socialism: “an economic system characterized by
social ownership of the means of production.” In
other words, the resources are owned and managed
by and for the benefit of a group (family, business,
local community, country.
This does not state how it works. This is just a general idea. Please explain briefly how this would work. My eye is really bad today and I can not read long posts well. This is why I am asking for a brief description of the workings of it, not the idea of it.
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:27 pm As noted in the article, the US is really a mixed economy.
Just because something is government run, does not mean it is socialistic. If it is run, but still gives the individual choices, it is not what I would call socialism. This is why I am asking how you see it working.
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