What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[Josh]

I don’t find all censorship egregious.

I don’t want homosexual pornography stocking the shelves of the children’s section of the local library, for example.

I don't want any pornography in the children's section of my local library, whether it is gay porn or straight porn. Luckily I'm quite confident there has never been any porn on those library shelves, even in this somewhat liberal community. And I'm pretty sure the computers in the children's section have porn filters as well.

Pornographic literature in libraries has a been a problem for a while, and now such books are being put in children’s sections as part of the lgbt agenda.

[Ken]

I don’t find all censorship egregious.

I don’t want homosexual pornography stocking the shelves of the children’s section of the local library, for example.

I don't want any pornography in the children's section of my local library, whether it is gay porn or straight porn. Luckily I'm quite confident there has never been any porn on those library shelves, even in this somewhat liberal community. And I'm pretty sure the computers in the children's section have porn filters as well.

Pornographic literature in libraries has a been a problem for a while, and now such books are being put in children’s sections as part of the lgbt agenda.

The word "pornography" has an actual meaning. Can you cite specific examples of actual pornography being put into children's libraries? Or is it just messages that you disagree with and wish to censor?

[Josh]

The word "pornography" has an actual meaning. Can you cite specific examples of actual pornography being put into children's libraries? Or is it just messages that you disagree with and wish to censor?

Pornographic literature would be things portraying sexuality related topics to children that are not appropriate. We already had some examples here posted from Portland's school curriculum being used all the way down to kindergarten.

Like it or not, most of the books being promoted by the LGBT lobby are pornographic and indecent. (I'll use the Supreme Court's definition of "I know it when I see it".) I don't want my kids being exposed to that kind of trash, and neither do many other parents. There's a town that recently decided to defund its library because the librarians refused to quit having this kind of trash in the kid's section. I expect to see a lot more like that. Libraries have become indoctrination camps run by progressives and the left instead of places that actually stock books that people want to read. (It seems every few weekends there is another library sale and we go load up on as many books as we can carry.)

Why are libraries throwing out classic children's books by the truckload - which we can easily sell for a handsome profit - to make space for this kind of pornographic trash?

[HondurasKeiser]

I don't want any pornography in the children's section of my local library, whether it is gay porn or straight porn. Luckily I'm quite confident there has never been any porn on those library shelves, even in this somewhat liberal community. And I'm pretty sure the computers in the children's section have porn filters as well.

Pornographic literature in libraries has a been a problem for a while, and now such books are being put in children’s sections as part of the lgbt agenda.

The word "pornography" has an actual meaning. Can you cite specific examples of actual pornography being put into children's libraries? Or is it just messages that you disagree with and wish to censor?

Here are 2 examples: "Gender Queer" & "Flamer". Both are graphic novels with sexually explicit, pictorial depictions that are available to many middle-school aged children across the country.

[Szdfan]

Pornographic literature in libraries has a been a problem for a while, and now such books are being put in children’s sections as part of the lgbt agenda.

The word "pornography" has an actual meaning. Can you cite specific examples of actual pornography being put into children's libraries? Or is it just messages that you disagree with and wish to censor?

Here are 2 examples: "Gender Queer" & "Flamer". Both are graphic novels with sexually explicit, pictorial depictions that are available to many middle-school aged children across the country.

So I’ve read “Gender Queer” and while there are explicit and frank depictions of sexuality in the book, I don’t think it meets the definition of pornographic.

Regarding a state ban in South Carolina:

https://www.wfae.org/race-equity/2021-1 ... it-obscene

Glenn: So, back to McMaster. He said some images in Gender Queer meet or exceed the statutory definition of obscenity. Is that the case?

Worf: I put that question to a couple law professors specializing in constitutional law because this really is a First Amendment issue. This is what Thomas Crocker had to say.

Thomas Crocker: It almost negligently is wrong because any lawyer knows the definition of obscenity is this exceptionally high bar to meet.

Worf: He’s a professor at University of South Carolina School of Law, the same law school McMaster received his law degree from.

Crocker: In general, they are not prosecuted very often because to meet the level of obscenity is a really, really high bar.

Worf: What kinds things qualify as obscene?

Crocker: I mean, when I teach this in First Amendment it’s really difficult to come up with a work that actually qualifies that has no redeeming artistic, literary merit. You have got to imagine things that I can’t imagine.

Glenn: What is South Carolina’s statute around obscenity?

Worf: Well, the work has to be judged as a whole to lack serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Mary-Rose Papandrea, a professor at UNC School of Law, says it matches word-for-word the standard the Supreme Court set for defining the category of speech called obscenity that falls outside the protections of the First Amendment.

Mary Rose Papandrea: My understanding is the book is a story about a nonbinary individual and that this would have clear literary, political, scientific, probably artistic value, as well.

Worf: She says under the First Amendment and South Carolina law, there is extra leeway for materials deemed obscene for minors. But even under that standard, she says the book has value.

I think this is really part of a backlash against LGBTQ — this is really an objection to students reading a memoir about a non-binary person and their discovery of their identity.

Kids, unfortunately, do have easy access to pornography, but it’s not from the school library. Last year, my ninth graders asked me if I knew what Porn Hub was. I’ve heard other students refer to Only Fans. Kids have easy access to material on their electronic devices that is much more explicit and pornographic than anything they’ll find in the school library, but we don’t see their parents taking their smartphones away.

[Ken]

Pornographic literature in libraries has a been a problem for a while, and now such books are being put in children’s sections as part of the lgbt agenda.

The word "pornography" has an actual meaning. Can you cite specific examples of actual pornography being put into children's libraries? Or is it just messages that you disagree with and wish to censor?

Here are 2 examples: "Gender Queer" & "Flamer". Both are graphic novels with sexually explicit, pictorial depictions that are available to many middle-school aged children across the country.

Sexuality is probably the most common theme in all of literature and sexual themes and sexual transgressions like assault and rape are everywhere in classic literature such as Shakespeare, Hawthorne, Faulkner, Tolstoy, Joyce, Sir Walter Scott, James Fenimore Cooper, Edith Wharton, Charlotte Brontë etc. etc. Rape is the central theme of To Kill a Mockingbird which is commonly read at the middle school level. And the Old Testament is dripping with stories of rape and sexuality.

I haven't read either of those two novels but I suspect the opposition is largely because there are LGBT themes, not because there is sexuality.

Pull up any AP literature reading list. Here is one, for example. And tell the percentage of works that contain sexual or sexually explicit themes? It is pretty high I suspect: https://www.slps.org/cms/lib/MO01001157 ... 20copy.pdf

If you wipe sexuality out of literature you don't have much left to work from, including the Bible.

[HondurasKeiser]

To both of your comments, I would encourage you to do a Google image search of both books. I cannot post images here as some from the book are clearly depictions of sexual activity. As Ken said, I think all pornographic imagery should stay off of children’s library shelves - gay, straight or otherwise.

[Szdfan]

To both of your comments, I would encourage you to do a Google image search of both books. I cannot post images here as some from the book are clearly depictions of sexual activity. As Ken said, I think all pornographic imagery should stay off of children’s library shelves - gay, straight or otherwise.

I’ve read “Gender Queer.” I’m aware what’s in it.

I understand why people are offended — I was a bit unsettled by the excerpts that are being attacked. It’s my understanding that the book was marketed towards older teens, which I think was probably the appropriate age group. I found the book in my local public library, but it was in the adult section with graphic novels, not with the YA section.

Not all depictions of sexuality or sexual activity are considered to be pornography under obscenity laws in the US. The so-called “Miller test” from the Supreme Court considers something obscene or pornographic only if it meets all three criteria:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

1. Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

2. Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law,

3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

Clearly, “Gender Queer” violates some local community standards, which is one reason this push is going on. However, it’s also a memoir and arguably has literary and artistic merit. Therefore, under the Miller test, the book doesn’t meet the definition of pornography or obscenity and is protected under the First Amendment.

I do think “Gender Queer” is edgy. I do think it pushes buttons. I don’t think it’s pornographic under the general consensus of US obscenity laws. I think the book has value for teens who are questioning and struggling with their identity. Is the book appropriate for all teens? No, but I also don’t think we should always make these decisions based on the lowest common denominator. Depending on context and authorial intention, our kids should have access to materiel that’s edgy and pushes buttons.

I think with some exceptions, book bans are a bad idea. I’m not a free speech absolutist, but I’m also not a fan of “cancel culture.” I’m ok with problematic art, though I think there should be public discussion about why the art is problematic and I think there is an argument for public shaming when people cross certain lines.

Ultimately, I think parents do have a responsibility to understand what their kids are consuming and I think they have a right to make decisions about what’s appropriate for their kids to consume, I don’t think they have a right to make that decision for other people’s kids.

I think the movement to ban certain books and topics in schools is harmful and destructive. It’s ironic that conservatives who have screamed about “cancel culture” are doing it themselves.

[Josh]

I’m not okay with pornography regardless of if it’s in a library or on the Internet.

It’s notable that liberals seem to think it’s okay and want to push it on younger and younger children. Teens should not be exposed to pornography, ever. The books in question are obscene.

If you think they aren’t, Szd, why don’t you start sharing screenshots of them here?

[ohio jones]

If you think they aren’t, Szd, why don’t you start sharing screenshots of them here?

Let's consider this a rhetorical question rather than a dare.