What they wore

[Josh]

If abuse levels are higher than the general surrounding population.

In case you aren’t aware, every population has sociopaths in it.

So you don't hold Christians to any higher standard than "the general surrounding population?"

As long as they meet that bar there is nothing to see here?

Is that your standard for every crime and every sin? Or just child sexual abuse? You go on a lot here on Mennonet about "fornication." If fornication rates within the CA community are no higher than the "general surrounding population" are you fine with that too?

I don’t hold sociopaths to a “higher standard”, no. I don’t believe a religious community can miraculously expect to be sociopath free.

Through effective accountability and church discipline they can be detected, excommunicated, and offered a path to restoration. Usually (but not always) they aren’t interested. One of my relatives has been very effective in doing this throughout the years. And yes in his case it was fornication, not things that would technically be illegal (although you never know how much coercion was involved).

[Josh]

One factor might be that in a CA church the penalty and shame relating to divorce is much more severe than in other churches.

Good!

It is shameful for man to deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. Besides, if you can't live with your "sister" or "brother" here on earth...

I think it is more a matter of which sins you choose to prioritize for penalty and shame.

Hypothetically speaking, would it be better to prioritize attacking a public sin between consenting adults (divorce) or a private sin with innocent victims (child sexual abuse within families).

I’m not sure why you call that a “private sin”. Both should be dealt with.

However, sociopaths are very good at covering up and hiding abuse inside a family - including from law enforcement, not just church people. I had an interesting conversation last week about scenarios where the prosecutor’s office can’t secure a conviction, but church people can continue to hold the abuser accountable. This is happening a lot in Amish circles and is effective at reigning in repeat offenders who are faced with a board of other Amish that inform him if he’s actually repentant, he will stop being around potential victims, agree to a confession before law enforcement, and submit to treatment in a qualified programme for offenders.

[steve-in-kville]

One factor might be that in a CA church the penalty and shame relating to divorce is much more severe than in other churches.

Good!

It is shameful for man to deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. Besides, if you can't live with your "sister" or "brother" here on earth...

And then there is compassion and forgiveness. Well, there is for some Christians anyway.

True, but trust needs to be earned.

[Sudsy]

Good!

It is shameful for man to deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. Besides, if you can't live with your "sister" or "brother" here on earth...

And then there is compassion and forgiveness. Well, there is for some Christians anyway.

True, but trust needs to be earned.

Not according to these links - 'trust must be granted not earned' -

https://mike-robbins.com/trust-is-granted-not-earned/
https://www.peaksol.com/blog/the-big-li ... ot-earned/

Here - 'trust is not earned, or given but grown - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/trust-ea ... m-klaassen

And this one - https://theoutlet.wordpress.com/2007/03 ... be-earned/

Perhaps an interesting side discussion regarding trusting man ?

[Ken]

And then there is compassion and forgiveness. Well, there is for some Christians anyway.

True, but trust needs to be earned.

Not according to these links - 'trust must be granted not earned' -

https://mike-robbins.com/trust-is-granted-not-earned/
https://www.peaksol.com/blog/the-big-li ... ot-earned/

Here - 'trust is not earned, or given but grown - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/trust-ea ... m-klaassen

And this one - https://theoutlet.wordpress.com/2007/03 ... be-earned/

Perhaps an interesting side discussion regarding trusting man ?

Trust can also be violated, squandered, and lost. Which is really what we are talking about here.

[KirkDaniel]

I recently heard some of the local Catholic hierarchy interviewed concerning sex abuse in the local archdiocese. In 2002 it was reported that 2% of their priest had been involved in sex abuse of some type. The archdiocese came up with a plan that involved church and law enforcement. Basically the church would handle the spiritual side of abuse investigations and law enforcement would handle the criminal side after immediate reporting. Those suspected of abuse would be immediately removed from their role in the church and restored only after law enforcement cleared them. Background checks were required for every church volunteer. The church made a public list of those who were accused of abuse. New church leaders were required to go through 2 days of mandatory reporting law training. The result of all of this? In the past 20 years there have been only 2 credible allegations of sex abuse by a priest in the local Catholic archdiocese. If the Catholics can do this, why can't the CA community?

From the interview though, a big part of the success was the church working with law enforcement. The church understood Romans 13 and realized they didn't have the skills needed to properly investigate and deal with criminal behavior. The local archdiocese trained 118,000 adults in 20 years and 65,000 children yearly on how to identify and report abuse. Again, can the CA community match the success of the Catholic church?

It’s interesting how law enforcement is worshipped as the solution to what is obviously a very serious sin and wickedness problem.

Lots of CAs are in Mexico and South America (and from what I hear is where abuse problems are the worst, although I don’t have hard evidence for that). Sometimes law enforcement there is very corrupt in those places. So what exactly would “working with law enforcement mean”?

CAs are not the RCC with a central hierarchy of authority. My own denomination fosters a strong relationship with law enforcement along with policies about abuse particularly for leadership, but other CA groups aren’t going to care at all what we are doing or adopt our policies. One might as well start saying “Why aren’t Turkmenistanis doing what the Catholic Church did about abuse?”

Ultimately, there is an assumption that CAs have an “abuse problem” when no facts point to this in evidence. The evidence is that they are the same, or better off, than the general population. As far as CA leadership, I know of no evidence they ever got as high as 2% of ordained men - and certainly MC USA never did either. This is tilting at windmills at its finest.

Why, Josh, you say no facts point to evidence of abuse problems in CA churches while at the same stime touting your claim that such problems are worse in Mexico and South America. Based on what you heard and have no "hard evidence" for. To what can we ascribe such talking our of both sides of one's mouth?

What is evident is that predators in CA churches are often hidden and shielded based upon a faulty view of repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. Let Jeriah Mast be a prime example. But he is not the only one. Developments in Canada are proving that to be true.

And how many survivors have testified to this fact and felt their only hope for safety was leaving a culture that covered for those who abused them? That is a sad testimony. And about as hard evidence as one could get.

If there is no "abuse problem" there is most assuredly a response problem. And that further victimizes survivors and puts others at risk.

[Josh]

KirkDaniel,

The question is if the rest of non CA society has similar problems. The answer is “yes”. There just isn’t some ethnic group or religious institution to point to and blame.

Abuse happens in Armenian circles, Latin American Catholic circles, atheist circles, white American circles, immigrant circles, low income circles, high income circles, and so on. Notably, abuse seems to happen LESS in Amish circles, at least by secondary measures like negative life outcomes. (Amish people are less likely to become criminals, get pregnant out of wedlock, become addicted to drugs, or commit suicide than their non-Amish neighbours. It is notable that all these things still do happen, yet the severity is less than non-Amish people who are otherwise identical.)

Pointing to conservative Anabaptism is the wrong thing to point fingers at. I could as well point fingers to law enforcement. They really let me down when myself and other people encouraged a victim to go to law enforcement - and they ended up losing the case despite having a recorded confession.

I will gladly blame certain people in CA circles for promoting and hiding abuse and other gross immorality, including pornography use, bestiality, adultery, and homosexual behaviour. And yes I have been aware of all 4 of these being tolerated, hidden, and those who sought to expose it shamed, lied about, and pushed out of the community. But that is not the norm of what CA culture is about.

[ABC 123]

CA tend to view themselves as being more right than the average church. (Some churches within CA consider themselves so right you have to be baptized in their church to even join.)

This is why people have a problem with these abuses being even once named among them.

Set yourself up as something big, you better be willing to deliver and not simply sweep things under the carpet if and when they come up. The whole JM thing. That church system he is from is Uber into calling out sin as sin....but apparently not always. Sadly, there are those who were cast out of there for some lame reasons like footwear and music CDs that didn't pass inspection. Be hard on sin, but first recognize what it is.

[Joy]

Set yourself up as something big, you better be willing to deliver and not simply sweep things under the carpet if and when they come up. The whole JM thing. That church system he is from is Uber into calling out sin as sin....but apparently not always. Sadly, there are those who were cast out of there for some lame reasons like footwear and music CDs that didn't pass inspection. Be hard on sin, but first recognize what it is.

My chiropractor told me that the Baptist church where his father's funeral was held told him (he was a little boy who had just lost his daddy) that his father was in Hell because he liked secular music.

[steve-in-kville]

My chiropractor told me that the Baptist church where his father's funeral was held told him (he was a little boy who had just lost his daddy) that his father was in Hell because he liked secular music.

Judgmental, are we?