Coronavirus Outbreak

[Ken]

Please see the bolded part. Now I'm going to make it real simple:

Ohio has a larger population than Vermont and has a larger proportion of the deaths.

Ohio has a larger unvaccinated population than their proportions of the deaths

See the difference? Why do you keep accusing me of comparing absolute numbers, when I have only ever shown data with proportional rates?

Which is EXACTLY my point. I'm glad you finally see it!

And no, you have NEVER shown a single bit of Covid mortality rate data that is proportional to population size. In other words, actual death rates. You continue to throw up graphs that are calculated EXACTLY like the one that I just made for your amusement. For example, the graph of Manitoba Covid deaths that you posted a few posts above is calculated exactly the same way. You are comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths despite the fact that they are different population sizes.

[nett]

Please see the bolded part. Now I'm going to make it real simple:

Ohio has a larger population than Vermont and has a larger proportion of the deaths.

Ohio has a larger unvaccinated population than their proportions of the deaths

See the difference? Why do you keep accusing me of comparing absolute numbers, when I have only ever shown data with proportional rates?

Which is EXACTLY my point. I'm glad you finally see it!

And no, you have NEVER shown a single bit of Covid mortality rate data that is proportional to population size. In other words, actual death rates. You continue to throw up graphs that are calculated EXACTLY like the one that I just made for your amusement. For example, the graph of Manitoba Covid deaths that you posted a few posts above is calculated exactly the same way. You are comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths despite the fact that they are different population sizes.

But I posted the population size of the unvaccinated. and its larger proportion of the population than the deaths it represents. That's why it's significant.

I always the absolute population proportions...are you ever going to acknowledge this, or just continue to screech, and post fake graphs?

[Valerie]

One thing that really upsets me which does affect these graphs is the amount of deaths they attribute to Covid on death certificates which in actuality was not the "cause". I've heard that for a long time but when I actually heard it from people in real life regarding their relatives then I realized there is truth to this. Including our daughter in laws Aunt who was over her covid and ready to go home from hospital but then she asphyxiated and that caused her death. But on her death certificate they put covid as a cause. I've heard this over & over- How can we trust any of these stats?

[nett]

One thing that really upsets me which does affect these graphs is the amount of deaths they attribute to Covid on death certificates which in actuality was not the "cause". I've heard that for a long time but when I actually heard it from people in real life regarding their relatives then I realized there is truth to this. Including our daughter in laws Aunt who was over her covid and ready to go home from hospital but then she asphyxiated and that caused her death. But on her death certificate they put covid as a cause. I've heard this over & over- How can we trust any of these stats?

My SIL who is an ER nurse has had the same experience. They have different guidelines for recording deaths based on vaccination status as well. Meaning they are much more likely to illegitimately code a death as COVID if the patient is not vaccinated.

[Josh]

One thing that really upsets me which does affect these graphs is the amount of deaths they attribute to Covid on death certificates which in actuality was not the "cause". I've heard that for a long time but when I actually heard it from people in real life regarding their relatives then I realized there is truth to this. Including our daughter in laws Aunt who was over her covid and ready to go home from hospital but then she asphyxiated and that caused her death. But on her death certificate they put covid as a cause. I've heard this over & over- How can we trust any of these stats?

There are financial incentives for this; the government offered large payments (around $35k) to hospitals for COVID deaths. Obviously, this makes a hospital pretty motivated to record more COVID deaths.

I chatted with a R.Ph. from a hospital in a heavily Amish area of the country who was griping that "these hillbillies refuse to admit they have COVID and just want to die at home". Later on in the conversation he revealed their COVID deaths are low, officially, but they should be "a lot higher".

[Ken]

Please see the bolded part. Now I'm going to make it real simple:

Ohio has a larger population than Vermont and has a larger proportion of the deaths.

Ohio has a larger unvaccinated population than their proportions of the deaths

See the difference? Why do you keep accusing me of comparing absolute numbers, when I have only ever shown data with proportional rates?

Which is EXACTLY my point. I'm glad you finally see it!

And no, you have NEVER shown a single bit of Covid mortality rate data that is proportional to population size. In other words, actual death rates. You continue to throw up graphs that are calculated EXACTLY like the one that I just made for your amusement. For example, the graph of Manitoba Covid deaths that you posted a few posts above is calculated exactly the same way. You are comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated deaths despite the fact that they are different population sizes.

But I posted the population size of the unvaccinated. and its larger proportion of the population than the deaths it represents. That's why it's significant.

I always the absolute population proportions...are you ever going to acknowledge this, or just continue to screech, and post fake graphs?

The graph I posted is no more fake than the one you posted. The different columns represented different population sizes, just like they did on your graph of Manitoba and the previous one from the UK.

It does no good to post separate statistics for population sizes taken from different data sets because those numbers are constantly changing. If you want to legitimately calculate death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated then you need to use data that draws from the same statistical population for both the numerator and the denominator. And preferably data that is stratified by age since death rates vary greatly by age as do vaccination rates.

This sort of information is actually very easy to find but it just doesn't show what you want it to show which I assume is why you never post it. For example, I just looked up the current COVID death rates by vaccination status for my own state of Washington. The current report is dated July 13 so only 4 days old. This is one relevant graph showing that death rates are 3.1 times higher for unvaccinated. These data do not separately track boosters from people who have only had the primary vaccine, they are all lumped together. The ratio has come down largely because deaths have come down across the board and un-boosted folks are included. Even so, at no time during the entire pandemic have vaccinated died at a higher rate than unvaccinated. Not one single week in the past 2 years has that been the case. https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/ ... inated.pdf



To pick another larger state that will likely have more consistent data due to larger sample sizes, here is California. Data is also current through last week, and unlike WA, CA separates out the boosted from those who only got the first series. But they do not separate out those who got a second booster: https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/#postvax-status



And here is the current national data which comes from the 28 states that currently report COVID mortalities by vaccination status (not all states still do this) looking at the death rates for people over age 50 by vaccination status including those who have had two boosters. They found that having a second booster results in death rates 28-times lower than being unvaccinated which seems pretty meaningful to me since I fall into that population. I'm over 50 and I have had my second booster. These data show that a second booster results in a 4-times lower death rate than just a single booster. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke ... ine-status



These three data sets are all different, for different time-series, different age groups, and differ in how they track vaccination status. But they all show dramatic reductions in death rates due to vaccinations. The WA numbers do not separate out boosted from those who just got the first set of vaccines and they show the least effect or 3.1-times reduction in death rates. The CA numbers separate out boosted, but do not distinguish between 1st and 2nd boosters and show more dramatic results. The CDC numbers which are the only data set that distinguishes between 1st and 2nd boosters shows the most dramatic results. Obviously there is a waning effect and one has to keep current with the booters to maintain the highest level of protection. This is not new information. This is exactly why they are promoting a second booster.

However NONE of these data sets show what you claim to be the case which is that the vaccinated have a higher death rate than the unvaccinated. That hasn't been the case ever, in any single week in any of these data sets. I have not come across a single jurisdiction from anywhere in the world where that is the case. Not one.

[Valerie]

One thing that really upsets me which does affect these graphs is the amount of deaths they attribute to Covid on death certificates which in actuality was not the "cause". I've heard that for a long time but when I actually heard it from people in real life regarding their relatives then I realized there is truth to this. Including our daughter in laws Aunt who was over her covid and ready to go home from hospital but then she asphyxiated and that caused her death. But on her death certificate they put covid as a cause. I've heard this over & over- How can we trust any of these stats?

There are financial incentives for this; the government offered large payments (around $35k) to hospitals for COVID deaths. Obviously, this makes a hospital pretty motivated to record more COVID deaths.

I chatted with a R.Ph. from a hospital in a heavily Amish area of the country who was griping that "these hillbillies refuse to admit they have COVID and just want to die at home". Later on in the conversation he revealed their COVID deaths are low, officially, but they should be "a lot higher".

Between what i shared, Nett shared & you shared above, shouldn't we conclude that we cannot rely on any of this data as truthful? (A large part of the population quit trusting) That with what nurses who are customers have shared with me, we cant help but conclude a lack of trust in the government behind this, the healthcare system and the data- why bother trying to "prove" anything when as one nurse said to me " We are being lied to". These endless data/graph wars will not be settled. What we know is they CANNOT be trusted- so why bother trying? They're tainted & untrustworthy motivated with power & agenda & $$$$

[Grace]

One thing that really upsets me which does affect these graphs is the amount of deaths they attribute to Covid on death certificates which in actuality was not the "cause". I've heard that for a long time but when I actually heard it from people in real life regarding their relatives then I realized there is truth to this. Including our daughter in laws Aunt who was over her covid and ready to go home from hospital but then she asphyxiated and that caused her death. But on her death certificate they put covid as a cause. I've heard this over & over- How can we trust any of these stats?

We can't trust the stats? No we can't.

https://apnews.com/article/andrew-cuomo ... 48e82271c5

[nett]

The graph I posted is no more fake than the one you posted. The different columns represented different population sizes, just like they did on your graph of Manitoba and the previous one from the UK.

It does no good to post separate statistics for population sizes taken from different data sets because those numbers are constantly changing. If you want to legitimately calculate death rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated then you need to use data that draws from the same statistical population for both the numerator and the denominator. And preferably data that is stratified by age since death rates vary greatly by age as do vaccination rates.

Data from the US is not granular enough to actually figure anything out. A lot of pro-vaccine people are complaining about this. Your WA data is just not worth looking at until they provide more detail.

Europe and Canadian data is just a lot better tracked, probably because they ave centralized universal healthcare (yay!). Unfortunately European countries and Canada has removed tables and graphs from their reports, because it "could be used to spread misinformation", ie: they didn't like what it was showing.

Moving on, I have provided population percentages for every graph I posted, and I never mixed statistical populations. That is what the MdPH dashboard did, and I called that out. If you think I did this, please reply with the post, and a detailed explanation of the populations I was mixing. I'm willing to admit if I was wrong. However, if you cannot do this, please stop with the red herrings

Can we can actually look at the data now?

This graph is age-adjusted from Manitoba's own data



No matter how you slice Manitoba's data, hospitalization and deaths are WORSE for vaccinated people. Boosters have a slight impact in hospitalization, and ICU admissions, but are still worse for deaths.

This is after ignoring the first 14 days after injection, which is when a lot of events occur.

If you don't want to accept this reality, that's fine, but please don't just lie about what I'm posting. This is the same statistical population, and it's age adjusted.

[Josh]

Ken,

I think you're coming very close to lying when you keep accusing nett of posting disjoint population statistics. I have not seen him do that at all.

I have refrained from calling you a liar so far since I have thought you have been arguing in good faith. But you need to halt your accusations of other people being liars and being intentionally dishonest. One could very easily conclude you have been doing the same thing.