Roe and Guns

[Only an Anz]

Oh I get that...just trying make a point about the inconsistency.

What inconsistency?

Picking and choosing which aspects of the Constitution we wish to defend on the basis of alleged roots in Scripture.

[Only an Anz]

I think Roe was wrong. I think this latest ruling on guns is wrong in precisely the way that Roe was wrong.

Both are basically the same ruling. The states still have the ability to set boundaries on gun ownership, they just can not ban it out right. A state is compelled to give the rights to a person.

Striking down Roe means the states have the right to set boundaries on abortion.

The right to own a gun is in the constitution. Having an abortion is not. Just as some protected classes are in the constitution and some are not. The ones that are not are not guaranteed protection. The ones that are, are.

Which groups are protected classes under the Constitution?

[Robert]

I don’t see corporations mentioned in the Constitution. Are corporations a protected class? Do corporations have free speech rights that allow them to have the same rights as individuals like political speech?

I don't know. That is an interesting question for another thread.

[Robert]

Oh I get that...just trying make a point about the inconsistency.

What inconsistency?

Picking and choosing which aspects of the Constitution we wish to defend on the basis of alleged roots in Scripture.

If you feel I am doing that. Please point it out. I feel I have been consistent. If not. I am open to being corrected.

[Robert]

Which groups are protected classes under the Constitution?

Bootstrap would be better to answer that. He has presented it before.

[Josh]

I don’t see corporations mentioned in the Constitution. Are corporations a protected class? Do corporations have free speech rights that allow them to have the same rights as individuals like political speech?

I don't know. That is an interesting question for another thread.

The answer to Szdfan's question is that it depends on if the individual states give legal personhood to corporations, foundations, trusts, LLCs, nonprofits, municipal governments, and all kinds of other legal entities. So far, every state in America has chosen to do so.

A state would be free to not recognise LLCs, corporations, etc. and not grant them legal personhood. But this is not a federal question. You don't incorporate at the federal level - you incorporate at the state level, and then also have to register (and often pay money) to every other state you want that corporation to do business in.

[Only an Anz]

What inconsistency?

Picking and choosing which aspects of the Constitution we wish to defend on the basis of alleged roots in Scripture.

If you feel I am doing that. Please point it out. I feel I have been consistent. If not. I am open to being corrected.

Premise: founders were mostly Christian. Ergo, the Constitution was based on Christian ideals. Ergo, America is/was/should be a Christian Nation

However....

George Washington was Anglican by birth but barely attended church

Thomas Jefferson not only had slaves but basically had Sally Hemmings as his concubine (seem like something from OT, not NT)

John Adams was a church-goer but Unitarian and didn't believe in the divinity of Christ.
Quotes: "All sober inquirers after truth, ancient and modern, pagan and Christian, have declared that the happiness of man, as well as his dignity, consists in virtue. Confucius, Zoroaster, Socrates, Mahomet, not to mention authorities really sacred, have agreed in this." -- Thoughts on Government, 1776

"I had forgotten the custom of putting Prophets in the Stocks....It may be thought impiety by many, but I could not help wishing that the ancient practice had been continued down to more modern times and that all the Prophets at least from Peter the Hermit, to Nimrod Hews inclusively, had been confined in the Stocks and prevented from spreading so many delusions and shedding so much blood." -- letter to Thomas Jefferson, dated 1812

Benjamin Franklin was Christian by birth but identified as a Deist in his autobiography.

Alexander Hamilton was one of the most educated of the Founding Fathers and may have been Jewish: https://religiondispatches.org/was-alex ... it-matter/ and did not join a church as far as I could find.

John Jay was a Huguenot & arguably the only lifelong Christian in this list.

James Madison famously said "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries." He was noticeably (and perhaps intentionally) quiet about his personal religious thoughts, faith, etc - if indeed he had them.

[temporal1]

Premise: founders were mostly Christian.
Ergo, the Constitution was based on Christian ideals. Ergo, America is/was/should be a Christian Nation

i wrote in another thread:

.. i believe it was genius how the founders worded documents to not deny God, to honor+respect God, but avoided being specific about any particular denom, not even naming Jesus, which allowed for Christian independence. i don’t believe other religions or atheism were actually on their radar. life was hard, they were busy, they were dealing with life as it looked at that time.

they weren’t thinking globally.
they weren’t even thinking much about Native Americans, or those arriving from Africa, except as converts to Christianity. they were busy trying to figure out themselves. as imperfect humans do.

i think of early Colonies, then the U.S., as God-honoring.
the Christian Holy Bible was the common book for many years following the printing press.
the founders were attempting to be representative, not attempting to create a kingdom of their own design, for their self-serving purposes.

they didn’t see themselves as perfect, they were fully human. i think they did well. and hoped for the best for the future.
what more could be expected?

[QuietlyListening]

Temp you wrote -

they weren’t even thinking much about Native Americans, or those arriving from Africa, except as converts to Christianity. they were busy trying to figure out themselves. as imperfect humans do.
i think of early Colonies, then the U.S., as God-honoring.

If the early colonies and US leaders were God- honoring wouldn't they have considered the Native Americans and that they were slaughtered because they were heathens; so I guess they slaughtered them in the name of God?
Those arriving from Africa were bought and sold, many not treated well, and held in bondage against their will. I am certain none of the founding fathers would have wanted to be in that position. How God honoring is that?

They may not have denied Christ in the documents they wrote but how about in their actions? Do we honor God by slaughtering a group of people, including native Americans who were Christians, because we considered them heathens and lumped all together in one camp?
Just questions I have when people tell me this country has a strong Christian foundation. I didn't know these men but their actions don't necessarily come across as God honoring.

[Szdfan]

Temp you wrote -

they weren’t even thinking much about Native Americans, or those arriving from Africa, except as converts to Christianity. they were busy trying to figure out themselves. as imperfect humans do.
i think of early Colonies, then the U.S., as God-honoring.

If the early colonies and US leaders were God- honoring wouldn't they have considered the Native Americans and that they were slaughtered because they were heathens; so I guess they slaughtered them in the name of God?
Those arriving from Africa were bought and sold, many not treated well, and held in bondage against their will. I am certain none of the founding fathers would have wanted to be in that position. How God honoring is that?

They may not have denied Christ in the documents they wrote but how about in their actions? Do we honor God by slaughtering a group of people, including native Americans who were Christians, because we considered them heathens and lumped all together in one camp?
Just questions I have when people tell me this country has a strong Christian foundation. I didn't know these men but their actions don't necessarily come across as God honoring.

Not to mention the way that the Bible and religion were also used to justify slavery and segregation later (it’s important to note that faith has played an important role in fighting slavery and segregation, so it’s important to note that Christianity is not all evil nor all good).

I live about an hour from the site of the Sand Creek Massacre where in 1864, the 3rd Colorado Calvary slaughtered and mutilated about 150 Arapaho and Cheyenne. The Calvary was commanded by John Chivington, a Methodist minister.

Is it possible to honor God and own slaves? Is it possible to honor God and slaughter indigenous tribes?