Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

[temporal1]

Death by famine is a historical reality on earth.
Various vibrant cultures thrived, until they didn’t. The unthinkable can happen. Life is more fragile than we care to think about.

In catastrophic times, urban areas often suffer the most, for several factors.

[Szdfan]

And what you are calling "Dacha gardens" were not urban gardens in the middle of the city. Such as people growing vegetables on the 6th floor balcony of their apartment flat. They were private small-scale rural farms that fell outside of the communist system of large collective state agriculture.

The concept is similar to the Gartenlaube in Germany — small private garden plots for apartment dwellers. They had these in East Germany too. I think the amount of land in a Gartenlaube is a lot smaller than these Dacha farms.

I'm all in favor of growing one's own food and being sustainable.

My wife and I are trying to grow more of our own food, mostly out of the self-satisfaction of it and to avoid trips to Walmart. We are under no illusion that we can become completely self-sufficient, which is one of my critiques of the so-called “homesteading” movement. What you can grow also depends on how much water you can get and I’ve seen numerous comments from would-be homesteaders in the Facebook groups who purchase land in Colorado and are shocked to find out that they can’t drill a well without purchasing water rights.

But commercial agriculture in whatever form is really necessary to feed large urban populations.

I think the idea that urban populations are going to be able to self-sufficiently produce their own food is a fantasy. Same with the idea that organic farmers at farmer’s markets are going to produce enough food to replace conventional agriculture.

The current food system is dysfunctional and broken, but it is also efficient and able to produce vast amounts of food. Something catastrophic will have to happen to replace the current system.

However, if there is anything that I’ve gleamed from this thread is that anything good for the environment is part of a massive international conspiracy to bring in the New World order surveillance state, so I’d think twice about growing tomatoes on your balcony.

[Ken]

Death by famine is a historical reality on earth.
Various vibrant cultures thrived, until they didn’t. The unthinkable can happen. Life is more fragile than we care to think about.

In catastrophic times, urban areas often suffer the most, for several factors.

Most of the famines in the past 100 years have been in rural areas, not urban. Currently the most severe famine on the planet is happening in the Horn of Africa and Sahel in the countries of Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya. And primarily rural areas not big cities like Nairobi and Addis Ababa: https://www.rescue.org/article/why-mill ... eme-hunger

[temporal1]

In catastrophic times [not limited to famine] urban areas often suffer the most, for several factors.

as you have described, urban areas are dependent on rural areas for many things, including agriculture.
i enjoy the urban life. people are very dependent on steady supplies, and “everything working” just so.

Katrina was a harrowing example. Mt St Helens was another, without anywhere near the population.
NYC 9-11-2001 was another. 2011 Japan’s tsunami. Many in my lifetime.

Bad things happen.

[Szdfan]

In catastrophic times [not limited to famine] urban areas often suffer the most, for several factors.

as you have described, urban areas are dependent on rural areas for many things, including agriculture.
i enjoy the urban life. people are very dependent on steady supplies, and “everything working” just so.

Katrina was a harrowing example. Mt St Helens was another, without anywhere near the population.
NYC 9-11-2001 was another. 2011 Japan’s tsunami. Many in my lifetime.

Bad things happen.

Rural areas are also dependent on urban areas. Rural areas have the same dependency on the supply chain as urban areas since most food raised in rural areas does not feed that community but is sent out to food processing plants. The food at grocery stores is most of the time not locally sourced. The rural communities I know are highly dependent on Walmart and Amazon.

[nett]

Russia proved with Dacha gardens that it's possible for even urban people to become self-sufficient when the state becomes sufficiently dysfunctional.

I'm not sure how we got onto this topic. But Russia has vast amounts of empty space and rural countryside. And what you are calling "Dacha gardens" were not urban gardens in the middle of the city. Such as people growing vegetables on the 6th floor balcony of their apartment flat. They were private small-scale rural farms that fell outside of the communist system of large collective state agriculture. So essentially just rural small-scale commercial agriculture. And even then we are talking about mostly just fruits and vegetables, not grains, meats/fish protein, and dairy which are really the staple calories consumed by most people.

I'm all in favor of growing one's own food and being sustainable. But commercial agriculture in whatever form is really necessary to feed large urban populations. It has been so since Biblical times when Egyptian grain fed Rome and crops from the Galilee and Jordan River Valley as well as fish from the Sea of Galilee and Mediterranean fed Jerusalem.

People commuted to the land surrounding the urban areas to grow their food. I think you're incorrect about commercial agriculture being needed to feed people.

[Szdfan]

Russia proved with Dacha gardens that it's possible for even urban people to become self-sufficient when the state becomes sufficiently dysfunctional.

I'm not sure how we got onto this topic. But Russia has vast amounts of empty space and rural countryside. And what you are calling "Dacha gardens" were not urban gardens in the middle of the city. Such as people growing vegetables on the 6th floor balcony of their apartment flat. They were private small-scale rural farms that fell outside of the communist system of large collective state agriculture. So essentially just rural small-scale commercial agriculture. And even then we are talking about mostly just fruits and vegetables, not grains, meats/fish protein, and dairy which are really the staple calories consumed by most people.

I'm all in favor of growing one's own food and being sustainable. But commercial agriculture in whatever form is really necessary to feed large urban populations. It has been so since Biblical times when Egyptian grain fed Rome and crops from the Galilee and Jordan River Valley as well as fish from the Sea of Galilee and Mediterranean fed Jerusalem.

People commuted to the land surrounding the urban areas to grow their food. I think you're incorrect about commercial agriculture being needed to feed people.

What percentage of Russians own dachas? What’s the average plot size for a dacha? How much land do you on average need in order to be food self-sustainable?

[temporal1]

Szd:
Rural areas are also dependent on urban areas.

i’ve always agreed with this, and loved living in thriving downstate Illinois WITH thriving Chicago to access.
really nice memories.

however, over time, Chicago DNC politics have strangled+gutted downstate, AND they’ve killed Chicago, too. (no ugly pun intended.)
this imbalance isn’t limited to Illinois. it’s destructive and sad. not the world anyone i know imagined.

the crime all around me now is gut wrenching. midwest small towns. not just 1 or 2.

- - - - - - -

Szd:
.. so I’d think twice about growing tomatoes on your balcony

It’s a win-win to make an effort to grow food. flowers, too. any type of growing, on any scale.
in case of urgent need, or emergency, you’re not starting from zero. if nothing else, maybe a newfound appreciation for farmers?

in times of urgency, or emergency, it’s amazing how quickly people can adapt.
i truly believe, things can change “on a dime.” sure, at times, life SEEMS long+mundane. i’m not sure why or how that happens. it does. those are good times we often take for granted.

earlier in the pandemic, lots more folks were trying out gardening, cooking, baking bread, etc. good for them.

[Szdfan]

Szd:
Rural areas are also dependent on urban areas.

i’ve always agreed with this, and loved living in thriving downstate Illinois WITH thriving Chicago to access.
really nice memories.

however, over time, Chicago DNC politics have strangled+gutted downstate, AND they’ve killed Chicago, too. (no ugly pun intended.)
this imbalance isn’t limited to Illinois. it’s destructive and sad. not the world anyone i know imagined.

the crime all around me now is gut wrenching. midwest small towns. not just 1 or 2.

- - - - - - -

Szd:
.. so I’d think twice about growing tomatoes on your balcony

It’s a win-win to make an effort to grow food. flowers, too. any type of growing, on any scale.
in case of urgent need, or emergency, you’re not starting from zero. if nothing else, maybe a newfound appreciation for farmers?

in times of urgency, or emergency, it’s amazing how quickly people can adapt.
i truly believe, things can change “on a dime.” sure, at times, life SEEMS long+mundane. i’m not sure why or how that happens. it does. those are good times we often take for granted.

earlier in the pandemic, lots more folks were trying out gardening, cooking, baking bread, etc. good for them.

Farming and ranching have always been difficult ways to make a living. Many of these farms and ranches are asset rich, but cash poor. One of my farm friends talks about the family having to sell some of their land because they weren’t making it.

I think there is a lot of value in producing your own food. My wife and I are working on a garden to grow the food we love. As I write this, my wife is making queso fresco cheese from goat milk from our goats. Today, I sat down and tried to record some of our past projects to start a farm journal. We hope over the following years and decades to build a life we enjoy and appreciate for ourselves.

But we have no expectation that we will ever be self-sustainable or even food self-sustainable. There are limits to how much food the land will support. We ran into water issues at our previous residence because our neighbor didn’t pay attention to how many animals his land could support and since we were part of a water coop, we didn’t have enough water for the house we rented for about two months last summer.

The water issues and soil quality out here won’t permit that. We own 17 acres, but we’ve decided not to have cows because putting cows on the kind of dry land pasture we have is iffy stewardship.

https://adams.extension.colostate.edu/a ... anagement/

One cow and calf require 9,490 pounds of forage a year. In Eastern Colorado, dryland pastures produce typically 200-2,000 pounds of forage an acre per year. Let’s say our pasture is about 15 acres. That comes down to between 3,000 and 30,000 pounds of forage a year. Without more data, I’m guessing the reality is somewhere in the middle. We could probably support a cow/calf pair, but I’d be concerned about potentially overgrazing.

None of these calculations take into consideration the practice of rotational grazing, which is where you shift the part of the pasture the cows graze on in order to prevent overgrazing. However, those kinds of practices require at least 30% more land.

The real kicker is water.
https://beef.unl.edu/amountwatercowsdrink

A cow will drink between 3 and 30 gallons of water a day. A rule of thumb is 1 gallon per 100 pounds. Mature heifers weigh between 800 and 1400 pounds. 14 gallons of water per cow is a massive amount of water and unsustainable if you don’t have water rights. The idea that people can grow their own beef on an acre or two of land in SE Colorado is absurd. At the very least, you’ll need to supplement grazing with alfalfa, which can get really expensive really quickly,

So we’re not getting our own cows. We currently have goats and are considering adding sheep and hogs. We’re currently working our way through half a steer we purchased from a rancher friend, but that requires a significant amount of upfront cash and freezer space (our first big appliance purchase as a married couple was a freezer). We will probably continue to purchase our beef like this in the future.

While we are located next to an irrigation canal, we don’t have water rights and can’t use any of it. Land with water rights is incredibly expensive. Our garden is small enough that we can purchase water from the local water association without a problem. My wife dreams of eventually building a commercial grade greenhouse in order to develop vegetables like cucumbers. If and when that happens, we will need to hire a water rights lawyer and have deep pockets in order to purchase sufficient water rights.

I think trying to grow your own food is a great idea. I think relearning some of the old skills to make your own things is worthwhile. But I also think that this idea that we can all grow enough of our own food without commercial agriculture is a complete and total fantasy.

A much more realistic approach is to supplement the food you eat with things you grow. It’s still worthwhile to grow tomatoes on your balcony for the joy of it, even if it’s not enough to feed your family the entire year.

[temporal1]

i would add i’m thankful for the abundance of commercially grown food in supermarkets and local grocers. even in these times when shelves are often empty, supplies sketchy. stores not in squeaky-clean condition of the recent past.

i love farmers’ markets, gardening, gardeners. but i hope not to see food markets disappear - as i’ve witnessed so many loved local businesses disappear - since 2008. that would be a great loss. commercial markets have provided amazing assortments of foods all through the year. maybe not always in the very best condition! (often due to storage+transportation.) amazing nevertheless.

i don’t delude myself:
anything can happen. people suffer losses, some catastrophic. sometimes without warning.
sometimes natural disasters, sometimes manmade.

we never know when we may be forced to tighten our belts and do without.