More guided or less guided ?

[Sudsy]

Thoughts, anyone ?

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.

Curious - what do you think were considered 'the scriptures' that the Bereans looked into ? And what exactly was the subject that they were checking out ?

[Ken]

Thoughts, anyone ?

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.

Curious - what do you think were considered 'the scriptures' that the Bereans looked into ? And what exactly was the subject that they were checking out ?

But the only scripture that existed when Paul was writing was the Tanakh or Old Testament. Paul's writings didn't become scripture for another 300 or so years.

[silentreader]

Thoughts, anyone ?

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.

Curious - what do you think were considered 'the scriptures' that the Bereans looked into ? And what exactly was the subject that they were checking out ?

Perhaps it was something like this, but with the principal actor changed, and the audience and audience response changed

Luke 4:14-21
English Standard Version
Jesus Begins His Ministry
14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

[Outsider]

Thoughts, anyone ?

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.

Curious - what do you think were considered 'the scriptures' that the Bereans looked into ? And what exactly was the subject that they were checking out ?

It was the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms (or TANAK). They looked there to find the truth of the claims of the Apostles, which we have written down to find the truth of the claims of any who might claim to speak in the Spirit. Christ and the Apostles taught absolutely nothing which could not be found there.

This might be carrying everyone off down a "bunny trail" here, but I think scripture and the Spirit go hand-in-hand.

Without the gifts of the spirit, the Bible is just a book and has as much authority to those who grew up outside its believers as the Vedas or Lao Tzu's writings have. This is one of my points of disagreement with the church I was raised in: which claims that the "new testament" (in particular the "King James" version) is "that which is perfect" as described in Corinthians which is supposed to end the gifts of the spirit. I think the "mirror" metaphor found in 1 and 2 Corinthians pose and answer the question as to what "that which is perfect" is:

1 Corinthians 13:11-13:

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


2 Corinthians 3: 18

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding (AB)as in a mirror (AC)the glory of the Lord, (AD)are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


I think there is an abundance of those "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

[Outsider]

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.

Curious - what do you think were considered 'the scriptures' that the Bereans looked into ? And what exactly was the subject that they were checking out ?

But the only scripture that existed when Paul was writing was the Tanakh or Old Testament. Paul's writings didn't become scripture for another 300 or so years.

Paul's word, along with the other Apostles, was considered authoritative in his own day. But, yes, the Bereans were studying the TANAK.

[Sudsy]

Throwing in some statements to see what others might understand on this -

The 'when that which is perfect is come' (1 Cor 13:10) is not our bibles. They are not 'perfect' which means 'complete'. The “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven / the eternal state. The Holy Spirit had already 'come' when Paul wrote this so Paul was not referring to the Holy Spirit. We all will continue to 'see through a glass darkly' and 'know only in part' regardless of which Christian group's teachings we decide to follow.

When Jesus left and went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide into all truth. The scriptures do not say that in 300 or so years, after Paul, that He would guide men to select the books we have in our bibles and that would be all we need to study and use to guide us into all truth. Although the Holy Spirit does use scriptures to guide us, He also guides us in many other ways.

If the Holy Spirit is leading us through scripture only how do we account for all the varied understandings of these scriptures ? There will always be varied views on what some scriptures are saying and which are literally applicable today. However, there sure has been much debate, church splits, quarrels and strife in the Church over what we now only know in part but are determined to figure out.

Feel free to disagree. Everyone welcome to join in.

[silentreader]

Throwing in some statements to see what others might understand on this -

The 'when that which is perfect is come' (1 Cor 13:10) is not our bibles. They are not 'perfect' which means 'complete'. The “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven / the eternal state. The Holy Spirit had already 'come' when Paul wrote this so Paul was not referring to the Holy Spirit. We all will continue to 'see through a glass darkly' and 'know only in part' regardless of which Christian group's teachings we decide to follow.

When Jesus left and went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide into all truth. The scriptures do not say that in 300 or so years, after Paul, that He would guide men to select the books we have in our bibles and that would be all we need to study and use to guide us into all truth. Although the Holy Spirit does use scriptures to guide us, He also guides us in many other ways.

If the Holy Spirit is leading us through scripture only how do we account for all the varied understandings of these scriptures ? There will always be varied views on what some scriptures are saying and which are literally applicable today. However, there sure has been much debate, church splits, quarrels and strife in the Church over what we now only know in part but are determined to figure out.

Feel free to disagree. Everyone welcome to join in.

Or what about Phillip and the Ethiopian? Phillip was brought by the Spirit so that he could use the scripture to lead the Ethiopian to salvation.

[Sudsy]

Throwing in some statements to see what others might understand on this -

The 'when that which is perfect is come' (1 Cor 13:10) is not our bibles. They are not 'perfect' which means 'complete'. The “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven / the eternal state. The Holy Spirit had already 'come' when Paul wrote this so Paul was not referring to the Holy Spirit. We all will continue to 'see through a glass darkly' and 'know only in part' regardless of which Christian group's teachings we decide to follow.

When Jesus left and went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide into all truth. The scriptures do not say that in 300 or so years, after Paul, that He would guide men to select the books we have in our bibles and that would be all we need to study and use to guide us into all truth. Although the Holy Spirit does use scriptures to guide us, He also guides us in many other ways.

If the Holy Spirit is leading us through scripture only how do we account for all the varied understandings of these scriptures ? There will always be varied views on what some scriptures are saying and which are literally applicable today. However, there sure has been much debate, church splits, quarrels and strife in the Church over what we now only know in part but are determined to figure out.

Feel free to disagree. Everyone welcome to join in.

Or what about Phillip and the Ethiopian? Phillip was brought by the Spirit so that he could use the scripture to lead the Ethiopian to salvation.

Yes, a great story of being led of the Spirit to be involved in the salvation of another. Taking OT scripture and explaining how this text was about Jesus. There is much in this story to be learned and believed.

Here is a sermon on this passage and if you go to the 10 minute mark where David asks the question about us ever having a sense of being guided by the Spirit and his little story reminds me of an uncle of mine who took a similar approach to being guided about most everything he did. Quite 'out there' for probably most believers but I think there is much to consider about how open we are throughout our day of allowing the Spirit to give us guidance. Do we experience sometimes that we are guided to do something that is 'scary' and/or quite against what we are intending to do at that point in time in our everyday living ?

Here is the link. Go to the 10 minute mark. This is all about that text of Phillip and the Ethiopian.

[Outsider]

Throwing in some statements to see what others might understand on this -

The 'when that which is perfect is come' (1 Cor 13:10) is not our bibles. They are not 'perfect' which means 'complete'. The “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven / the eternal state.

I get more of an idea that Paul is trying to convey something believers still in this world will observe. When faith is perfected in the heart of the believer, the lesser gifts of the Spirit will fall away. "these now remain: faith, hope, and charity, and charity is the greatest of these".

The Holy Spirit had already 'come' when Paul wrote this so Paul was not referring to the Holy Spirit. We all will continue to 'see through a glass darkly' and 'know only in part' regardless of which Christian group's teachings we decide to follow.

There is but one body of Christ, and it is those who profess that Christ is come in the flesh. "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord!', except by the Holy Spirit." I'm convinced that wherever "two or three" are gathered in His name, he is there also- in the Holy Spirit.

I'm also convinced that those who, in innocence, follow the "weightier matters of the law" will find salvation, no matter with what assembly they are associated.

When Jesus left and went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide into all truth. The scriptures do not say that in 300 or so years, after Paul,

Well, it's not like you can't access the books that were kept out. The Apocryphia is freely available here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm So you can judge for yourself whether they were kept out for a reasonable cause or for the advantage of certain men.

I really don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying that the writings of the Apostles are somehow less scripture than the TANAK? That the Spirit who guided them to write is somehow less than the Spirit who spoke through Elijah or David? And Jesus himself said, "No man was greater than John", to whom he had ascribed the identity of Elijah, "yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he."

that He would guide men to select the books we have in our bibles and that would be all we need to study and use to guide us into all truth. Although the Holy Spirit does use scriptures to guide us, He also guides us in many other ways.

But how do you discern what spirit is guiding you, or another person? Even Christ was tempted.

If the Holy Spirit is leading us through scripture only how do we account for all the varied understandings of these scriptures? There will always be varied views on what some scriptures are saying and which are literally applicable today.

I'd say if they were "literally applicable" in the first century, they're "literally applicable" today. Even the ritual commandments. There's not a whole lot of those, for a Christian. But they're necessary.

However, there sure has been much debate, church splits, quarrels and strife in the Church over what we now only know in part but are determined to figure out.

There were bishops killing each other over theological disputes before scripture was codified into canonical/non-canonical.

I think all the strife in the church is over worldliness- fist one's standing in the church, wanting the "good seats" etc., then the church became profitable for advancement in the worldly realms of government, business, and influence when the Roman Emperors were converted.

You will always have to contend for the truth in this world. There will be those who will wander off after evil, and do it in the name of God. Not because knowledge of scripture is bad, but because the heart's of men are lacking in charity.

Feel free to disagree. Everyone welcome to join in.

I still don't understand where you place scripture in your religion. Is it something to be trusted, or is it something to be ignored because "the spirit" has told you it should be ignored?

[Sudsy]

Throwing in some statements to see what others might understand on this -

The 'when that which is perfect is come' (1 Cor 13:10) is not our bibles. They are not 'perfect' which means 'complete'. The “perfect” thing to come is the glorification of believers in heaven / the eternal state.

I get more of an idea that Paul is trying to convey something believers still in this world will observe. When faith is perfected in the heart of the believer, the lesser gifts of the Spirit will fall away. "these now remain: faith, hope, and charity, and charity is the greatest of these".

The Holy Spirit had already 'come' when Paul wrote this so Paul was not referring to the Holy Spirit. We all will continue to 'see through a glass darkly' and 'know only in part' regardless of which Christian group's teachings we decide to follow.

There is but one body of Christ, and it is those who profess that Christ is come in the flesh. "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord!', except by the Holy Spirit." I'm convinced that wherever "two or three" are gathered in His name, he is there also- in the Holy Spirit.

I'm also convinced that those who, in innocence, follow the "weightier matters of the law" will find salvation, no matter with what assembly they are associated.

When Jesus left and went to be at the right hand of the Father, He sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide into all truth. The scriptures do not say that in 300 or so years, after Paul,

Well, it's not like you can't access the books that were kept out. The Apocryphia is freely available here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm So you can judge for yourself whether they were kept out for a reasonable cause or for the advantage of certain men.

I really don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying that the writings of the Apostles are somehow less scripture than the TANAK? That the Spirit who guided them to write is somehow less than the Spirit who spoke through Elijah or David? And Jesus himself said, "No man was greater than John", to whom he had ascribed the identity of Elijah, "yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he."

I'll answer your questions in blue.

No, I am not saying the Spirit is different than the Spirit that guided OT people such as Elijah or David. I am trying to say that the Spirit has been sent to us under the NC to live in us permanently and to guide us even when we are not reading scripture. So, after Pentecost, they did not have to wait until the canon of scriptures was compiled but could be led by the Spirit, moment by moment.

that He would guide men to select the books we have in our bibles and that would be all we need to study and use to guide us into all truth. Although the Holy Spirit does use scriptures to guide us, He also guides us in many other ways.

But how do you discern what spirit is guiding you, or another person? Even Christ was tempted.

I believe this is a learned process that begins with a belief that He will guide us and we purposefully listen for Him to speak. This requires a close relationship and dependence on Him to guide us. He lives within the believer but the believer can ignore Him. I believe one of the biggest challenges today is taking time to hear from the Spirit. He doesn't have to speak to us based on our schedule.

Christ was tempted and so will we be tempted but Christ knew when He was being tempted and resisted temptation. One of these ways was He referred to scripture. This, to me, indicates an example for us to learn and memorize scripture and the Spirit is promised to bring things to our remembrance.

If the Holy Spirit is leading us through scripture only how do we account for all the varied understandings of these scriptures? There will always be varied views on what some scriptures are saying and which are literally applicable today.

I'd say if they were "literally applicable" in the first century, they're "literally applicable" today. Even the ritual commandments. There's not a whole lot of those, for a Christian. But they're necessary.

However, there sure has been much debate, church splits, quarrels and strife in the Church over what we now only know in part but are determined to figure out.

There were bishops killing each other over theological disputes before scripture was codified into canonical/non-canonical.

I think all the strife in the church is over worldliness- fist one's standing in the church, wanting the "good seats" etc., then the church became profitable for advancement in the worldly realms of government, business, and influence when the Roman Emperors were converted.

You will always have to contend for the truth in this world. There will be those who will wander off after evil, and do it in the name of God. Not because knowledge of scripture is bad, but because the heart's of men are lacking in charity.

Feel free to disagree. Everyone welcome to join in.

I still don't understand where you place scripture in your religion. Is it something to be trusted, or is it something to be ignored because "the spirit" has told you it should be ignored?

Scripture is one means we have that God uses to speak to us as the Holy Spirit illuminates our understandings. Scripture certainly is not meant to be ignored as a means. However, the truths in scripture need to be correctly understood and applied. Most Christians do not have the same agreement regarding a literal application of scriptures, including Anabaptists. I then have to think that this is because we all do only understand at this point in part. No Christian group or person has the scriptures understood fully or ever will. We all 'see through a glass darkly'. And perhaps it was to be this way to keep us searching truths, I don't know. YMMV.