More guided or less guided ?

[Sudsy]

Before the Scriptures were readily available the common person was really quite ignorant about Christian truth. There is a sense in which a common ignorance will seem somewhat more similar compared with varying levels of understanding coupled with varying degrees of dedication to understanding Truth vs attempting, consciously or subconsciously, to make Truth fit our desires.

I can't argue with this. Mainly because my old brain can't comprehend what this means. Do you have perhaps another way of explaining this and how the Holy Spirit is involved in guiding us to truth ?

I will try.

Thankyou. I will respond in blue.
It seemed you were saying that understanding of Christian truth and practice is more varied now than it was before Bibles were readily available.
Yes, I believe it is because most everyone now has access to scripture and also there are so many avenues for debating publicly and reading materials on what scriptural truth and practise is about.
I believe you are suggesting it might be because previously believers relied more on the Holy Spirit to guide them into truth.
I believe the earliest church had little choice as they had a letter or two and what Paul, primarily, taught them in person on a visit. However, in the very earliest of churches they began to pick and chose whose teachings they were going to follow. Paul reminded the Corinthians to focus on following Christ which leads me to believe he was emphasizing the inner guidance of the Spirit. I'm probably sounding somewhat like a Quaker now.
I believe most professing Christians were quite ignorant of truth.
Are you saying you think we have more knowledge of truth today than the early church did who had no Bibles ?
I believe that a significant factor in the variety of understandings about core truth today is a tendency to try to make the truth fit us instead of making ourselves fit the truth.
This, to me, is saying we are not intune with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I suspect human reasonings influenced by our flesh and what it wants and perhaps a view that listening to the Spirit is too mystical in how to know truth and obtain guidance in our practise is a major issue. I believe the Christian life is not one of using our intelligence to determine truths and practise but rather is a life of supernatural guidance of the Spirit to our spirit in what to believe and practise. As scripture says not many were called by God in the early church that were wise by human standards. I think it is perhaps harder for well educated people in this world to be Spirit lead than those who must rely on Holy Spirit guidance.
Would love to read more on everyone's views of being lead of the Spirit and how to know we are.

[Josh]

It seems quite odd to presuppose Christian life relies on modern technology to mass produce cheap Bibles.

The western world certainly has not become more godly since 1900.

[temporal1]

It seems quite odd to presuppose Christian life relies on modern technology to mass produce cheap Bibles.
The western world certainly has not become more godly since 1900.

The Holy Spirit isn’t on the same wave length as Zuckerberg or Gates, is He?
The HS is not the “efficiency god” so many adore.

[temporal1]

Mention of early Quakers makes me recall earlier discussions, esp with Bill Rushby.
Reading about the first Quakers fascinates me.
i think about these when Neto shares about his experiences with the Banawa in Brazil.

2017-forward / “Quakers and Anabaptists” / Anabaptist Theology ..
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=415

[temporal1]

Sudsy:
This, to me, is saying we are not intune with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I suspect human reasonings influenced by our flesh and what it wants and perhaps a view that listening to the Spirit is too mystical in how to know truth and obtain guidance in our practise is a major issue.

I believe the Christian life is not one of using our intelligence to determine truths and practise but rather is a life of supernatural guidance of the Spirit to our spirit in what to believe and practise.

As scripture says not many were called by God in the early church that were wise by human standards.

I think it is perhaps harder for well educated people in this world to be Spirit lead than those who must rely on Holy Spirit guidance.

i think scriptures support all of this.
i empathize with reluctance folks have about it - there have been significant failures and exploitation.

but that doesn’t mean it’s not real+true! and powerful. and necessary.

believers must be very careful. and deeply trusting.

[Sudsy]

Sudsy:
This, to me, is saying we are not intune with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I suspect human reasonings influenced by our flesh and what it wants and perhaps a view that listening to the Spirit is too mystical in how to know truth and obtain guidance in our practise is a major issue.

I believe the Christian life is not one of using our intelligence to determine truths and practise but rather is a life of supernatural guidance of the Spirit to our spirit in what to believe and practise.

As scripture says not many were called by God in the early church that were wise by human standards.

I think it is perhaps harder for well educated people in this world to be Spirit lead than those who must rely on Holy Spirit guidance.

i think scriptures support all of this.
i empathize with reluctance folks have about it - there have been significant failures and exploitation.

but that doesn’t mean it’s not real+true! and powerful. and necessary.

believers must be very careful. and deeply trusting.

Your post reminds me of what Jesus said about His sheep. He said His sheep know and hear His voice and they follow Him. Another's voice they will not follow. With so many voices to hear, even within Christianity, and so many varied beliefs being taught from the same Bibles, how does one know the voice of the Shepherd today above voices that are not Spirit lead ?

Is this a question to be concerned about ? Or perhaps the 'now seeing through a glass darkly' is the main reason why we don't follow the Shepherd the same or what do others here make of this ?

[joey_the_ox]

Your post reminds me of what Jesus said about His sheep. He said His sheep know and hear His voice and they follow Him. Another's voice they will not follow. With so many voices to hear, even within Christianity, and so many varied beliefs being taught from the same Bibles, how does one know the voice of the Shepherd today above voices that are not Spirit lead ?

Someone once described this problem, and their struggle to find a solution:

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of a scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in a darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

[temporal1]

i don’t think it’s possible to have fewer questions or doubts than the Apostles.
Jesus had questions for His Father, He struggled. i think keeping in mind Jesus’ responses to His Apostles is our best guide for how to live in faith, when it doesn’t make any sense at all. Jesus and His Apostles did not live in continual comfort+glory.

i have not read:

Jesus Is the Question: The 307 Questions Jesus Asked and the 3 He Answered / Paperback – September 2, 2014
by Martin B. Copenhaver (Author)

Contrary to some common assumptions, Jesus is not the ultimate Answer Man, but more like the Great Questioner.
In the Gospels Jesus asks many more questions than he answers.

To be precise, Jesus asks 307 questions. He is asked 183 of which he only answers 3.

Asking questions was central to Jesus’ life and teachings. In fact, for every question he answers directly he asks—literally—a hundred.

Jesus is the Question considers the questions Jesus asks—what they tell us about Jesus and, more important, what our responses might say about what it means to follow Him.

Through Jesus’ questions, he modeled the struggle, the wondering, the thinking it through that helps us draw closer to God and better understand, not just the answer, but ourselves, our process and ultimately why questions are among Jesus’ most profound gifts for a life of faith.

We live with a lot of mystery and unknowing. Scriptures are honest about it. i’m grateful for this.
If scriptures promised an easy earthly life, i’m not sure i could cope with it. We are to live in faith, with promise of hope.
Right?

[Sudsy]

Your post reminds me of what Jesus said about His sheep. He said His sheep know and hear His voice and they follow Him. Another's voice they will not follow. With so many voices to hear, even within Christianity, and so many varied beliefs being taught from the same Bibles, how does one know the voice of the Shepherd today above voices that are not Spirit lead ?

Someone once described this problem, and their struggle to find a solution:

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of a scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in a darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

Perhaps one big issue is admitting the lack of wisdom and/or don't ask. One goes off determined to figure things out my way. Done that many times and often suffered the consequences of not being humble enough to ask and believing that God will provide the wisdom needed. I believe to live by faith is to believe God will provide the wisdom and answers we need if and when we need it. Sometimes children will want to know about things that is better that they wait until more mature to be told. I think God operates somewhat the same for our best.

[Outsider]

Thoughts, anyone ?

Don't even begin to agree with those thoughts.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Scripture can only bring you closer to God. It's the reason the Papacy isn't selling indulgences anymore- unless they've started doing something I'm not aware of. Scripture is a preacher. The greater falling-away we see in our culture is not due to the availability of scripture, but the lack of reading of scripture.

I like the literal translation of that passage better, though:


"2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing [is] God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that [is] in righteousness"

And the early Church used their scripture for discernment, with Pual praising the Bereans, who did just that:

Acts 17:11
and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;


Without scripture, and general access to scripture: "Thus sayeth the Lord!" quoth the false prophet.