Farewell, MCUSA

[ken_sylvania]

Continued refusal to “read the room.”

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

Oh, I know what room I’m in. I’m just suggesting I think you are unrealistic to think it will work. Look at how much abuse and sexual dysfunction exists in the Amish and plain Menno community if recent news and documentaries and statistics are to be believed. And these are mostly straight people who have legitimate outlets for their desires. To expect gay people to live like saints when absolutely no one else does is simply unrealistic in my mind. And isn’t going to end up working. No matter how much you try to “pray away the gay”

We have freedom of religion in this country and people are free to establish whatever standards they want for belief and conduct within their faith. I have no argument with any of that. But if you are going to structure your faith around strict adherence to straight norms and straight life with no tolerance for gays you are either going to (1) drive gay people out of the faith, or (2) generate long-term dysfunction and problems for those who remain that will spillover onto their families. I expect the number of long-term success stories is going to be a small fraction of the total. They exist of course. You can find examples. But I doubt they will be the majority.

Unbelievers have long thought that following Christ is unrealistic. The tradition of which you are a part has an ancient history.

Perhaps it would be unrealistic to expect gay people to live like saints if absolutely no one else did, but reality is that I know many people who not only live like saints, they actually are saints. One of the characteristics that they have in common is that they don't habitually do things that are an abomination to God.

[temporal1]

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

Unbelievers have long thought that following Christ is unrealistic.
The tradition of which you are a part has an ancient history.

Perhaps it would be unrealistic to expect gay people to live like saints if absolutely no one else did, but reality is that I know many people who not only live like saints, they actually are saints. One of the characteristics that they have in common is that they don't habitually do things that are an abomination to God.

Well said.
This is the beauty+power of Jesus Christ, who came to offer salvation to all.

Jesus empowers by establishing we are more than animals, slaves to carnal and base instincts. He offers: authentic CHOICE.
This is hope, humans thrive on hope. How hopeless, how insulting, to suggest, “you cannot overcome sin.” embrace it!

Jesus did not devote His life to deciding by consensus or majority. Not by gov mandate, either.
Jesus offered His Way. The Way to eternal life.

[Neto]

A few thoughts on the MCUSA decision -

Wouldn't it be shocking if we come to find out that the apostle Paul had abnormal sexual temptations that was his 'thorn in the flesh'. Paul referred to this 'thorn' as a messenger from satan that came to harass him and so I think it possible that this had to do with Paul's thoughts. I don't think anyone can say they know exactly what this 'thorn' was. Whatever it was, Paul prayed it would be taken away but God did not do it. Instead He assured Paul that God's grace would be sufficient to deal with this issue as God's power was made perfect in weakness. Paul then took this as a positive condition that he would even delight in, this 'thorn', as it was one of many trials in his life that could make Paul spiritually strong.

Jesus said to look on a woman with lust is committing adultery. I don't doubt some Christians have big struggles with what goes on in their mind that could be lusting. Many have confessed their viewing of porn and how they give into those mind enticements. Some pray about this often but it continues to draw them in their thoughts. So what to do about this adultery ? I believe the way to handle this sinning is to realize there are some things we just are going to have to live with and believe the power of God is made perfect in our weaknesses. Lean (be filled constantly) on the power of the Holy Spirit to not give way to the desires of the flesh.

To me, this is the message and support Christians should have for each other. Not to accommodate sin but to experience the grace of God to be an overcomer of sin and experience God's power being made perfect by our weaknesses. Some of us may have short tempers or like to verbally fight or some other sins and the solution is always the same. Walk in the Spirit. Imo, too much human reasonings causes results such as the solution that MCUSA came up with. One is not guided by the Spirit just because they are a believer but it seems many believe that and perhaps don't realize they have tuned out the Spirit's voice. I know I certainly don't listen to Him enough.

Anyway, I just can't see where the Holy Spirit was involved in this decision. I wonder how much prayer and fasting was made by the 55% group. Guess we'll never know.

Now back to dealing with my own issues. Not !

I recall reading some suggestions (about Paul's thorn in the flesh) along those lines years ago, even some thinking that it was homosexual attraction with which he struggled. Possible, I suppose, but there is that one comment he makes in one place that would indicate that it was not that, where he asks the rhetorical question: "Don't I have the right to have a believing wife traveling with me?" But that might well indicate a desire he had that was not fulfilled in his life.

Once in a conversation with another member (male) of our congregation (no longer there - they moved out of the state), who, when I remarked that I didn't think that we could ever be totally free of temptation in this life, that this is why we so greatly desire the transformation at the return of Christ, he said "Oh, I hope not - That is a rather dark prospect." And it IS a dark prospect. But even darker is the idea that no one can or ever does gain victory over temptation. I certainly do not hold to that sort of "dark view' - the Scripture promises that we CAN have the victory. Probably not every time, or in every type of temptation, but a life of, as our former pastor often said, "keeping short accounts with sin". The fact that somewhere I can point to someone else who does a sin equally as bad as that with which I am tempted - that is no excuse for me to walk in the darkness of sin. That is a miserable prospect. I don't think I could bear to intentionally live that kind of life while also attempting to maintain any sort of relationship with Jesus, where I would continually have the voice of the Holy Spirit in my innermost, constantly calling me out of that life. Fence riding gets really painful really fast. (I'm thinking barbwire now.... )

[Ken]

Continued unbelief in the power of God to save from sin.

Oh, I know what room I’m in. I’m just suggesting I think you are unrealistic to think it will work. Look at how much abuse and sexual dysfunction exists in the Amish and plain Menno community if recent news and documentaries and statistics are to be believed. And these are mostly straight people who have legitimate outlets for their desires. To expect gay people to live like saints when absolutely no one else does is simply unrealistic in my mind. And isn’t going to end up working. No matter how much you try to “pray away the gay”

We have freedom of religion in this country and people are free to establish whatever standards they want for belief and conduct within their faith. I have no argument with any of that. But if you are going to structure your faith around strict adherence to straight norms and straight life with no tolerance for gays you are either going to (1) drive gay people out of the faith, or (2) generate long-term dysfunction and problems for those who remain that will spillover onto their families. I expect the number of long-term success stories is going to be a small fraction of the total. They exist of course. You can find examples. But I doubt they will be the majority.

Unbelievers have long thought that following Christ is unrealistic. The tradition of which you are a part has an ancient history.

Perhaps it would be unrealistic to expect gay people to live like saints if absolutely no one else did, but reality is that I know many people who not only live like saints, they actually are saints. One of the characteristics that they have in common is that they don't habitually do things that are an abomination to God.

I don't really have a stake in this. I'm not gay and I don't attend a CA church. I no longer attend an MCUSA church but I do attend a church that doesn't exclude gay members so I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more. But there are many many people gay and straight who are good Christians and who disagree with the notion that being gay means they are an "abomination to God" or not "following Christ"

I expect that as time passes the cognitive dissonance of the gay members in your conservative churches is only going to grow as wider society becomes more welcoming and open to gay people. And you will have gay members. Almost all of them will be family members who grow up in the church as I expect gay adults are unlikely to want to join a church that excludes them when many other churches do not. And the majority will either leave the church or lead troubled lives that lead to things like broken marriages. Only a small number will live what you are calling "saintly lives" Everything I have seen and learned about this topic over the years suggests to me that is going to be the case.

[Soloist]

I don't really have a stake in this. I'm not gay and I don't attend a CA church. I no longer attend an MCUSA church but I do attend a church that doesn't exclude gay members so I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more. But there are many many people gay and straight who are good Christians and who disagree with the notion that being gay means they are an "abomination to God" or not "following Christ"

I expect that as time passes the cognitive dissonance of the gay members in your conservative churches is only going to grow as wider society becomes more welcoming and open to gay people. And you will have gay members. Almost all of them will be family members who grow up in the church as I expect gay adults are unlikely to want to join a church that excludes them when many other churches do not. And the majority will either leave the church or lead troubled lives that lead to things like broken marriages. Only a small number will live what you are calling "saintly lives" Everything I have seen and learned about this topic over the years suggests to me that is going to be the case.

Ken...

Why is homosexuality increasing? simple persecutions of those prior?
Why is the transgender population increasing?

Do you believe someone who thinks they have gender dysphoria can't refrain from being the "correct" gender? Do you believe that a woman who believes she is a man should have corrective surgery and medication so she can live as a he?
Is there actually a difference between this immutable attraction and the supposed immutable gender?

The Christian's response is that both need to repent and live for the Lord. If that means celibate, that is their cross to bear.

As you've stated no opposition to homosexuality, what would your advice be to a transgender seeking to follow God?

[Ernie]

I don't really have a stake in this. I'm not gay and I don't attend a CA church. I no longer attend an MCUSA church but I do attend a church that doesn't exclude gay members so I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more. But there are many many people gay and straight who are good Christians and who disagree with the notion that being gay means they are an "abomination to God" or not "following Christ"

Do you understand that for most of us on MN, it doesn't matter what many, many people think about something? For us counter-culture folks, we march to a different drum beat. We set our compasses by a different star.

I expect that as time passes the cognitive dissonance of the gay members in your conservative churches is only going to grow as wider society becomes more welcoming and open to gay people. And you will have gay members. Almost all of them will be family members who grow up in the church as I expect gay adults are unlikely to want to join a church that excludes them when many other churches do not. And the majority will either leave the church or lead troubled lives that lead to things like broken marriages. Only a small number will live what you are calling "saintly lives" Everything I have seen and learned about this topic over the years suggests to me that is going to be the case.

Plain Anabaptists for a long time have had singles who have needed to live celibately. Because of our cultural norms, the ladies have no way of honorably pursuing marriage and advertising their availability. They need to wait on some man to ask them for their friendship. (I don't think it should be that way, but that is the way it is, and it is not going to change anytime soon.) I mention this simply to point out that the majority of singles in our healthy churches do struggle with singlehood and with celibate living, but not very many leave these healthy churches for churches that allow them to be sexually active or a church where they can advertise their availability for marriage. So yes, what you say is true for unhealthy churches (for both those who nurture inapporpriate thoughts about the opposite gender or the same gender). But I don't see any validity to your prediction as it relates to healthy churches.

[temporal1]

It might be disengenuous to claim neutrality, or even rejection of any given topic, when the corresponding habit has been to vote for these things in political elections, encourage your children and everyone else’s to be enthusiastic lib SJWs, and the like.

From what i gather, MCUSA members generally vote and are involved in politics.

In general, i tend to wonder, when discussions come up, “Did you vote for it?” Often, the answer is “Yes,” or, “Yes, but” ..

[Ken]

I don't really have a stake in this. I'm not gay and I don't attend a CA church. I no longer attend an MCUSA church but I do attend a church that doesn't exclude gay members so I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more. But there are many many people gay and straight who are good Christians and who disagree with the notion that being gay means they are an "abomination to God" or not "following Christ"

I expect that as time passes the cognitive dissonance of the gay members in your conservative churches is only going to grow as wider society becomes more welcoming and open to gay people. And you will have gay members. Almost all of them will be family members who grow up in the church as I expect gay adults are unlikely to want to join a church that excludes them when many other churches do not. And the majority will either leave the church or lead troubled lives that lead to things like broken marriages. Only a small number will live what you are calling "saintly lives" Everything I have seen and learned about this topic over the years suggests to me that is going to be the case.

Ken...

Why is homosexuality increasing? simple persecutions of those prior?
Why is the transgender population increasing?

Do you believe someone who thinks they have gender dysphoria can't refrain from being the "correct" gender? Do you believe that a woman who believes she is a man should have corrective surgery and medication so she can live as a he?
Is there actually a difference between this immutable attraction and the supposed immutable gender?

The Christian's response is that both need to repent and live for the Lord. If that means celibate, that is their cross to bear.

As you've stated no opposition to homosexuality, what would your advice be to a transgender seeking to follow God?

Three points.

1. I don't know that homosexuality is increasing. This frankly isn't an area that I have studied in any great detail. But my instinct that it is more or less the same as it has always been. There are just a higher percentage of people "out of the closet" so to speak. I think if you look at numbers of LGBT people you find that a high percentage of them are actually women identifying as bisexual. EDIT. Here's one study I found which suggests that a high number are women who identify as bi. And I suspect a large number of them aren't really bi but rather straight or gay and like to identify as bi because it is sort of trendy. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... ople-lgbt/

2. I tend to take people at their word in most things. Especially adults. If they say they are trans I take them at their word. If they say they are straight or gay I take them at their word. I think people can live in denial for a long time. But I tend to think people don't change their fundamental identity or sexuality. I just look at myself and try to imagine what it would take to become gay and there is just no level of psychotherapy or whatever you could give me to convince me desire sleeping with men. I have never once had those thoughts or curiosities for as long as I can remember. And the thought of it kind of makes my skin crawl. Gay people I know say basically the same thing about their sexuality and I believe them. So sure, I think people can "refrain" from anything but I don't think their basic orientation is going to change.

3. What advice would I have for a trans person seeking to follow God? The same as for anyone else. Do your best to be a good Christian and find a supportive community that shares your beliefs. I don't assume sexuality is the primary point of identity or struggle for anyone just because they are straight or gay or trans. It may be a big part of their life or a small part. They might have other religious issues that they find far more important. Such as peacemaking or abortion or any other point of theology than sexuality. Just like I don't necessarily assume a black person is obsessed and consumed with issues of race, or a woman is obsessed with and consumed by gender politics.

[Soloist]

Three points.

1. I don't know that homosexuality is increasing. This frankly isn't an area that I have studied in any great detail. But my instinct that it is more or less the same as it has always been. There are just a higher percentage of people "out of the closet" so to speak. I think if you look at numbers of LGBT people you find that a high percentage of them are actually women identifying as bisexual. EDIT. Here's one study I found which suggests that a high number are women who identify as bi. And I suspect a large number of them aren't really bi but rather straight or gay and like to identify as bi because it is sort of trendy. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... ople-lgbt/

2. I tend to take people at their word in most things. Especially adults. If they say they are trans I take them at their word. If they say they are straight or gay I take them at their word. I think people can live in denial for a long time. But I tend to think people don't change their fundamental identity or sexuality. I just look at myself and try to imagine what it would take to become gay and there is just no level of psychotherapy or whatever you could give me to convince me desire sleeping with men. I have never once had those thoughts or curiosities for as long as I can remember. And the thought of it kind of makes my skin crawl. Gay people I know say basically the same thing about their sexuality and I believe them. So sure, I think people can "refrain" from anything but I don't think their basic orientation is going to change.

3. What advice would I have for a trans person seeking to follow God? The same as for anyone else. Do your best to be a good Christian and find a supportive community that shares your beliefs. I don't assume sexuality is the primary point of identity or struggle for anyone just because they are straight or gay or trans. It may be a big part of their life or a small part. They might have other religious issues that they find far more important. Such as peacemaking or abortion or any other point of theology than sexuality. Just like I don't necessarily assume a black person is obsessed and consumed with issues of race, or a woman is obsessed with and consumed by gender politics.

Obviously people won't agree with you, but thank you for your response.

[Ken]

I don't really have a stake in this. I'm not gay and I don't attend a CA church. I no longer attend an MCUSA church but I do attend a church that doesn't exclude gay members so I'm just giving my opinion, nothing more. But there are many many people gay and straight who are good Christians and who disagree with the notion that being gay means they are an "abomination to God" or not "following Christ"

Do you understand that for most of us on MN, it doesn't matter what many, many people think about something? For us counter-culture folks, we march to a different drum beat. We set our compasses by a different star.

I expect that as time passes the cognitive dissonance of the gay members in your conservative churches is only going to grow as wider society becomes more welcoming and open to gay people. And you will have gay members. Almost all of them will be family members who grow up in the church as I expect gay adults are unlikely to want to join a church that excludes them when many other churches do not. And the majority will either leave the church or lead troubled lives that lead to things like broken marriages. Only a small number will live what you are calling "saintly lives" Everything I have seen and learned about this topic over the years suggests to me that is going to be the case.

Plain Anabaptists for a long time have had singles who have needed to live celibately. Because of our cultural norms, the ladies have no way of honorably pursuing marriage and advertising their availability. They need to wait on some man to ask them for their friendship. (I don't think it should be that way, but that is the way it is, and it is not going to change anytime soon.) I mention this simply to point out that the majority of singles in our healthy churches do struggle with singlehood and with celibate living, but not very many leave these healthy churches for churches that allow them to be sexually active or a church where they can advertise their availability for marriage. So yes, what you say is true for unhealthy churches (for both those who nurture inapporpriate thoughts about the opposite gender or the same gender). But I don't see any validity to your prediction as it relates to healthy churches.

Yeah, well I'm not Donald Kraybill. I haven't conducted any sort of detailed study on plain life, especially as it relates to sexuality. These are just my thoughts, nothing more.

But I would point out that there is a fundamental difference between straight singles in your church who are waiting for love and marriage to come to them, and gay folks, who if they are taking all your teachings to heart understand that it NEVER will. I got married at an older age than most and I know what it is to be out there looking for a long long time and wondering if it was ever going to happen. But you always have hope and you always keep looking. That is different from deciding at age 18 that it NEVER will as long as you remain within that community and life.

Reflecting about this topic more, I expect what actually happens most commonly in conservative communities in which homosexuality is repressed is that people just live double lives. Conservative Anabaptists are hardly the only such community. It is exceedingly common around the world in may societies. Western societies that are open to gays are probably the minority frankly. And there are a whole lot of people out there just getting by through living double lives. Women who live together as "friends" and who are just careful about public expressions of affection. Bachelor men who just never quite found the right woman. And even gay men and lesbian women who pair off in marriages of convenience. I think that has always happened and likely still does in every segment of society in which living openly gay is frowned upon or worse. People just find ways to live their lives as best they can. Not everything is about sex and sexuality.

I am, however, skeptical that things are always a "healthy" as you suggest. I have never heard so much discussion about things like treatment for sex addiction (the recent pure life ministries thread) and homes for troubled youth (the Liberty Ridge farm threads and other similar institutions) until I came here. Not to mention all the treads about sex abuse. Maybe that has not touched your own corner of the world in which case count your blessings I guess.