Trump and Russia

[Grace]

To lay the Russian invasion into Ukraine at Trump's feet seems moot at this point. He isn't president, Biden is. And we need to look at what Biden did that emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine.

Actions speak louder than words. Was it Biden’s actions that emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine?

Considering Biden's incompetent exit from Afghanistan, and his obvious weak inadequacy as President, is it any wonder that Putin saw this time as a window of opportunity to carry out his war-filled goals to cut through Ukraine and then start devouring little pieces of other countries.

Russia seized part of Ukraine while Obama was President. For 4 years under an unpredictable and forceful Trump, Putin did nothing. Was it because he knew it was risky?

Under Trump, the United States became an oil exporter. Under Joe Biden, the United States asked Russia for oil. In 2021 the U.S. under Biden, bought 250 mil. Barrels of oil from Putin at a cost of 18 billion. Yet he put moratoriums and restrictions, on U.S. energy. Putin wasn't blind, and saw that as weakness and lack of forethought.

It was Biden who gave Putin the green light for a "minor incursion" (Biden’s words) into Ukraine. It was Biden who lifted sanctions on Nordstream 2, even after our Ukrainian and Polish allies warned it would enable and embolden Russian aggression, yet Biden did not listen. They were right

In the end it appears, we need to look no further than to Biden, who obviously laid the groundwork for Putin’s invasion.

[Bootstrap]

To lay the Russian invasion into Ukraine at Trump's feet seems moot at this point. He isn't president, Biden is. And we need to look at what Biden did that emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine.

Huh?

Here's what I actually said, once again. Feel free to give a direct response to any part of it. Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine - I asked for examples where Trump has done that. To me, Trump seems to have a very hard time standing up to Putin, even though he boasts about doing so. And he has covered up for Putin over and over again. Trump has had business dealings with Putin and shady dealings in Ukraine. I'm trying to imagine why anyone would choose Trump for this role.

Trump is not God. He is not the answer to every problem. And this is one problem he really does not seem to be the answer to.

Can you give me examples of Trump standing up to Putin and Putin backing off as a result? Or of Trump offering clear and loud criticism of Russia? Mostly, Trump has mocked people who pointed out that Putin was doing outrageous things, covering for Putin.

Can you give me examples of Trump praising Ukraine or standing up for Ukraine?

In February, Trump's reaction to the invasion was:

He is pretty smart. He’s taken over a country for $2 worth of sanctions taking over a country — really a vast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people — and just walking right in.

And he basically told Zelensky to give Putin whatever Putin wants. This is the man you want to stand up to Putin?

According to the Mueller Report, the first impeachment, the second impeachment, ongoing criminal and civil cases, and investigations, Trump may well have conflicts of interest with respect to both Russia and Ukraine. Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Alexander Vindman, a former White House national security official, and Fiona Hill, Senior Director for Europe and Russia of the National Security Council, all testified against Trump specifically with respect to Ukraine and Russia.

So I would expect Trump to deny any wrongdoing by Putin and to encourage Ukraine to surrender. That's consistent with what he has done all along.

[Grace]

Here's what I actually said, once again. Feel free to give a direct response to any part of it. Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine - I asked for examples where Trump has done that. To me, Trump seems to have a very hard time standing up to Putin, even though he boasts about doing so. And he has covered up for Putin over and over again. Trump has had business dealings with Putin and shady dealings in Ukraine. I'm trying to imagine why anyone would choose Trump for this role.

Trump is not God. He is not the answer to every problem. And this is one problem he really does not seem to be the answer to.

Sorry if I didn't follow the topic question.

I highly doubt if Trump could influence Putin in any way. As I said, Putin saw the many actions of a weak president and saw this time as a window of opportunity to carry out his war-filled goals to cut through Ukraine and then start devouring little pieces of other countries. And no man, including Trump, can change his mind. Only God can change his mind.

As for business dealings with Ukraine, we all know that the Biden, especially Hunter, have shady dealings with Ukraine as well.

[GaryK]

Huh?

Here's what I actually said, once again. Feel free to give a direct response to any part of it. Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine

For the record, Ernie didn't imply what you think he did. Here's what he wrote.

Early on in the Russian war against Ukraine, some Americans were saying, "If Trump were President, this war would never have happened."
I think there are two reasons for those who believe this.

Note that he wrote "for those who believe this".

[Ernie]

Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine.

No, I am simply posing the issue as the Trump supporters have posed it. I've not been able to understand how Trump would have kept Putin from invading Ukraine but wanted to hear how Trump's defenders look at this. I figured I must be missing something. I'm hearing some of those defenses but they are not convincing arguments to me at this point.

[temporal1]

Grace:
I highly doubt if Trump could influence Putin in any way.

As I said, Putin saw the many actions of a weak president and saw this time as a window of opportunity to carry out his war-filled goals to cut through Ukraine and then start devouring little pieces of other countries. And no man, including Trump, can change his mind.
Only God can change his mind.

There may be another wrinkle.
Aggression usually results when there is a perceived threat, or, a perception needs are not met.

This may be Trump’s strong suit.
He detects those who may be most likely to act out, then engages them in ways that works to neutralize temptation to aggression. Stroking egos. “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar,” old saying. He did this, sending ideologues screaming.

Elsewhere, DanZ wrote something to the effect that he doesn’t think much of putting out fires with gasoline.

Thing is, Trump was never allowed much time or leeway, so, it’s mostly speculation.

One thing, tho.
After Trump was elected, there was one positive surprise after another in his short+plagued term;
biden’s term has been worse than imagined, with promises of much worse ahead.

[Grace]

Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine.

No, I am simply posing the issue as the Trump supporters have posed it. I've not been able to understand how Trump would have kept Putin from invading Ukraine but wanted to hear how Trump's defenders look at this. I figured I must be missing something. I'm hearing some of those defenses but they are not convincing arguments to me at this point.

Trump’s motto was to always fight back harder, when attacked. Add to that, him being unpredictable and being know for acting harshly, like he did in killing terrorists. Could it be some of those factors were a deterrent for Putin, not by design but by default.

[temporal1]

No, I am simply posing the issue as the Trump supporters have posed it. I've not been able to understand how Trump would have kept Putin from invading Ukraine but wanted to hear how Trump's defenders look at this. I figured I must be missing something. I'm hearing some of those defenses but they are not convincing arguments to me at this point.

Trump’s motto was to always fight back harder, when attacked. Add to that, him being unpredictable
and being [known] for acting harshly, like he did in killing terrorists. Could it be some of those factors were a deterrent for Putin, not by design but by default.

unpredictable is a good word for him. at least, unconventional.
he could definitely be brash. then surprisingly engaging. his detractors are eager to jump to criticize, no matter what.

i suspect “he’s not as dumb as he looks/sounds.”
he had an awful lot of positive results, under continual duress, for it to be blind luck.

he had a terrific advantage of having had inside exposure to career politicians for decades. he knows where skeletons are hidden.
he knows how they think+act. he knows their weak spots. THEY HATE THAT.

[Ken]

Ernie asked whether Trump should be given a role negotiating between Russia and Ukraine. He implies that Trump would stand up to Ukraine.

No, I am simply posing the issue as the Trump supporters have posed it. I've not been able to understand how Trump would have kept Putin from invading Ukraine but wanted to hear how Trump's defenders look at this. I figured I must be missing something. I'm hearing some of those defenses but they are not convincing arguments to me at this point.

"Standing up to Ukraine" and being an honest mediator during peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are two separate things and probably mutually exclusive.

We are talking about negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and I'm puzzled to understand what Trump's role would be unless both parties requested him and agreed to him which I don't see happening give his past history.

The more likely scenario if they need a 3rd party mediator would be a more neutral country like perhaps Turkey or India.

[Ernie]

"Standing up to Ukraine" and being an honest mediator during peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are two separate things and probably mutually exclusive.

Yes, I don't see Trump as a mediator. The only role I can see him in is that of rebuke, something like this. "Looky here Mr. Putin. What you are doing to the Ukrainians is really nasty. Let them alone and go back home. Quit killing all these people. If you don't..."
As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Trump may not really care about the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine, (in which case he would not have a role to fill) but Trump is known to change his mind very rapidly.
It seems to me that Putin is emboldened as long as he knows there is a sizeable percentage of Westerners who don't think NATO should be expanding its footprint or giving weapons to Ukraine.