Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

Josh, I am very anti-war, I served in the military. You should know my stance and I would support the people who are interested in supporting these girls especially the ones who chose to keep the unborn child. That is the response of a Christian... I'm annoyed that they are not allowed to give anything to these girls yet that only the police and medical can talk to them but at least a Christian was in a singular place to influence them for life of those babies.

And that is, on its face, quite suspicious: this terrible atrocity has happened, but they (whoever that is) isn't allowed to help them? This is exactly what war propaganda regimes do: they find someone something bad has happened to, and then use them for a prop. They make sure they can't get any help, because if they did, they wouldn't be as useful as a propaganda prop anymore.

The right thing to do is not to participate in the propaganda game.

It certainly seems like you believe that account and have used dramatic language in your positions of defending Russia's actions.

Well, I don't really believe war (particularly modern warfare) is ever really OK, but if we're going to judge things by some kind of "just war" standard, then yes, Russia's actions can be defended. Of course, the Christian shouldn't be busy trying to defend either side in a conflict. Why? Because we never saw Jesus do that, and he had ample opportunity to do so.

There isn't much need for more voices here calling out the evils of Russian violence. There is definitely a need for to call out the evils of Western violence (including Western-sponsored violence in Ukraine), and there is also a need to point out that anti-Russian sentiment will not lead to greater peace or justice in the world.

[temporal1]

I wash my hands of this discussion as I see it as fruitless and we will continue to believe what we believe.

please, don’t go too far.
you are consistent, and add valuable perspective. you aren’t the only former military forum member who chose to become CO, but each member brings another layer of insight. (as well as input from your wife!)

Josh has his unique perspective, too.

[Dan Z]

Biden’s asking for another $33 billion for Ukraine! Every arms dump deepens this thing. Discouraging

https://apple.news/A5ALY2AydQemPdVvMk7TVYw

[Ken]

Biden’s asking for another $33 billion for Ukraine! Every arms dump deepens this thing. Discouraging

https://apple.news/A5ALY2AydQemPdVvMk7TVYw

That is a lot of money. A large portion is for military aid, but that number also includes economic and humanitarian aid as well

Mostly we would be sending money to US defense contractors and they would be sending stuff to Ukraine., Or we would be sending existing older stuff from US stockpiles and then replacing it with newer stuff.

To put that number in perspective, that is about half of Russia's annual defense budget. And other countries are kicking in lots of aid as well.

The question is, will this sort of thing escalate the conflict and turn it into a wider regional war? Or will it do the opposite and make it more likely that Russia dials back its territorial aspirations and seeks a negotiated settlement? I have absolutely no idea. But I'm guessing this is part of a larger US and NATO strategy to make it clear to Russia that they are not in a position to win and should seek an "offramp" of some sort. Whether or not that will actually work is anybody's guess I suspect. The "experts" have already been wrong about pretty much everything to do with this war.

[Josh]

$44 billion to buy out Twitter, than $33 billion for arms deals... there sure is plenty of money sloshing around.

Yet the poor keep getting poorer and the rich keep getting richer.

[Ken]

$44 billion to buy out Twitter, than $33 billion for arms deals... there sure is plenty of money sloshing around.

Yet the poor keep getting poorer and the rich keep getting richer.

I agree there is an insane amount of money sloshing around and obscene amounts of wealth concentrated in a few individuals like Elon Musk, who got a lot of his wealth through public subsidies for both electric cars and spaceflight.

But are the poor objectively getting poorer? Or just falling behind as the rest advance faster? At least in this country there are a whole lot of poor people (the bottom 10% for the sake of argument) who are living a lot more comfortable lives than the bottom 10% poor people in say 1890.

I have some objectively quite poor kids in my classes. They still have decent clothes (not rags) they get free breakfasts and lunches at school, they get free public education and free public health care (Medicaid), they mostly have cell phones and all have school-provided Chromebooks and internet access if they lack it at home (school-issued internet hot spots). They can get $15/hour service jobs everywhere after school instead of having to work in sweatshops 12 hours/day or in the fields for pitiful wages like in the 19th century. They will get basically free college educations if they choose to go that route and are decent students.

This country is so wealthy we can do things like waste a trillion dollars on tax cuts for the wealthy or a trillion dollars on Covid stimulus. So $30 Billion for Ukraine is barely rounding error and most of it will never leave the US anyway, but just line the pockets of US defense contractors and shareholders.

[Josh]

$44 billion to buy out Twitter, than $33 billion for arms deals... there sure is plenty of money sloshing around.

Yet the poor keep getting poorer and the rich keep getting richer.

I agree there is an insane amount of money sloshing around and obscene amounts of wealth concentrated in a few individuals like Elon Musk, who got a lot of his wealth through public subsidies for both electric cars and spaceflight.

That's not how Elon Musk got his wealth.

He got it by joining and investing in Zip2, PayPal, and Tesla very early, before each of them had a meteoric stock rise or was acquired by another company.

But are the poor objectively getting poorer? Or just falling behind as the rest advance faster? At least in this country there are a whole lot of poor people (the bottom 10% for the sake of argument) who are living a lot more comfortable lives than the bottom 10% poor people in say 1890.

The poor are definitely getting poorer. Poor people can't afford a house and can barely afford their rent - and rentals are hard to find. Affording a house or rental in a safe neighbourhood is even more difficult.

The basic needs people have are for things like shelter and food, and those are becoming much more expensive. That means poor people are getting poorer.

I have some objectively quite poor kids in my classes. They still have decent clothes (not rags) they get free breakfasts and lunches at school, they get free public education and free public health care (Medicaid), they mostly have cell phones and all have school-provided Chromebooks and internet access if they lack it at home (school-issued internet hot spots). They can get $15/hour service jobs everywhere after school instead of having to work in sweatshops 12 hours/day or in the fields for pitiful wages like in the 19th century. They will get basically free college educations if they choose to go that route and are decent students.

It's interesting how you define "doing well" as having free breakfasts and lunches of unhealthy school-catered food from Big Ag, having a low quality computer that is not usable for general purpose tasks (but does make you a good consumer of Google), and that you think a $15/hour "service job" can actually let someone get ahead in this day and age. I know someone with one of those service jobs trying to support a family - it's very hard for him to make it. Those job usually pay out 28 hours a week and don't schedule in advance, so $420 a week before taxes means not much is left over after rent and basic groceries. Let alone taking care of a car to get to and from work.

This country is so wealthy we can do things like waste a trillion dollars on tax cuts for the wealthy or a trillion dollars on Covid stimulus. So $30 Billion for Ukraine is barely rounding error and most of it will never leave the US anyway, but just line the pockets of US defense contractors and shareholders.

Well, of course, that's the whole idea of government spending - so it can make the oligarchs even richer.

Fun fact: Elon Musk is of Pennsylvania Dutch background. His mom was a Haldeman (not a Holdeman) but her family settled in Canada.

[nett]

At least in this country there are a whole lot of poor people (the bottom 10% for the sake of argument) who are living a lot more comfortable lives than the bottom 10% poor people in say 1890.

1890 is probably one of the worst times for the bottom 10% ever. I believe the average lifespan in the tenement villages in NYC was something like 27.

The ONLY reason things have improved since then, is because we figured out to pump and exploit a massive amount of flexible free energy that was in the ground. Without the temporary free energy glitch, we would have had a lot of industrial progress (at least until coal ran out), but conditions wouldn't have material improved. The mobility and pure density of oil's energy really was a game changer...temporarily.

I have no doubt that when we finally hit terminal velocity falling off the EROI cliff, conditions for the bottom 10% will make 1890 look positively utopian.

[nett]

The narrative continues to shift. Now the possibility of a Russian victory in The Ukraine is being discussed in the mainstream. What a wild shift from a few weeks when "Russian was almost out of supplies, and was a week away from being unable to continue the operation"

https://archive.ph/VPSLA

[Ken]

The narrative continues to shift. Now the possibility of a Russian victory in The Ukraine is being discussed in the mainstream. What a wild shift from a few weeks when "Russian was almost out of supplies, and was a week away from being unable to continue the operation"

https://archive.ph/VPSLA

Um.....OK. That Guardian article was from last Sunday. The Guardian's coverage from today says that Russia is suffering "Colossal Losses"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ys-uk-live