Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

Josh, I was very skeptical of the main stream media branding everything as war crimes Russia committed, and I called out several accounts as likely just propaganda. I did the same for Russian propaganda. Some of those things have later come out more quietly as propaganda and false.

That being said, I have a high appreciation for first hand accounts from established missions and the credibility of the doctor working with or connected with MIM is not in any doubt in my mind.

I believe without question that Russia has accidentally killed civilians, intentionally killed civilians, raped at least some women and children per MIM report, and suffered higher casualties then Russia reported but lower then Ukraine reported.
I also believe without question the Ukraine has accidentally killed civilians, that there is reasonable suspicion that they have intentionally killed civilians for one reason or another, and that Ukraine has suffered higher casualties than reported but lower then Russia reported.

I see you arguing that Russian casualties are lower, Russia only accidentally kills civilians and no war crimes of any kind by Russia are confirmed. Ukraine is committing war crimes, their casualties are higher and they are intentionally killing civilians and blaming Russia.

Regardless of legitimacy for reasons to invade, this is a strange position to take with the history of Russia and of wars in general. Did I accurately perceive your opinion? Or please clarify it, because that is what it seems you are saying.

[mike]

Is time on the side of Russia or the Ukraine?

Ukraine is apparently hitting strategic targets inside Russia through odd means. And possibly time is giving them a chance to take better advantage of all the weapons pouring in from the west.

[Josh]

Josh, I was very skeptical of the main stream media branding everything as war crimes Russia committed, and I called out several accounts as likely just propaganda. I did the same for Russian propaganda. Some of those things have later come out more quietly as propaganda and false.

That being said, I have a high appreciation for first hand accounts from established missions and the credibility of the doctor working with or connected with MIM is not in any doubt in my mind.

It depends on if it is actually "first hand". I appreciate lots of things I have heard from missionaries - but the mission is also a gigantic rumour mill where people repeat things they heard from someone else "first hand". In the end, it is very much second and third hand rumours.

I see you arguing that Russian casualties are lower, Russia only accidentally kills civilians and no war crimes of any kind by Russia are confirmed. Ukraine is committing war crimes, their casualties are higher and they are intentionally killing civilians and blaming Russia.

Regardless of legitimacy for reasons to invade, this is a strange position to take with the history of Russia and of wars in general. Did I accurately perceive your opinion? Or please clarify it, because that is what it seems you are saying.

I never said any of those things. What I have said is that Russia is not somehow more likely to commit atrocities than Ukrainian forces are. The mainstream media's narrative is basically that Russia is all things evil, where as any Ukrainian forces are all peace and light and goodness. This seems absurd on its face to me. Both countries are notorious for being very corrupt.

But Ukraine does have a history of shelling civilians for the past 8 years. It is strange how many people seem to be giving them a free pass on this. It is very common to have wartime propaganda where one side accuses the other of atrocities. It is best for the Christian believer to simply not listen to such noise. Anyone who is speaking who is a government official or involved in the military or intelligence agencies should not be looked at as an accurate source of information.

I would confidently state "no war crimes have been confirmed", because nobody is pushing that narrative outside of Western media and outlets who have a vested interest in this war. They are not credible and not to be trusted.

If you are wondering if sexual assaults happen in wartime situations - of course they do, just like in peacetime situations.

[Josh]

Is time on the side of Russia or the Ukraine?

Ukraine is apparently hitting strategic targets inside Russia through odd means. And possibly time is giving them a chance to take better advantage of all the weapons pouring in from the west.

It would really be best for the rest of us if NATO does not get involved in a hot war with Russia, and supplying Ukraine with large amounts of arms is a great way to do that.

[Soloist]

It depends on if it is actually "first hand". I appreciate lots of things I have heard from missionaries - but the mission is also a gigantic rumour mill where people repeat things they heard from someone else "first hand". In the end, it is very much second and third hand rumours.

Have you actually read the MIM report? have you followed their accounts historically? these are first hand accounts from known people for prior to the war and established.

[mike]

Is time on the side of Russia or the Ukraine?

Ukraine is apparently hitting strategic targets inside Russia through odd means. And possibly time is giving them a chance to take better advantage of all the weapons pouring in from the west.

It would really be best for the rest of us if NATO does not get involved in a hot war with Russia, and supplying Ukraine with large amounts of arms is a great way to do that.

This has been a proxy war from the beginning. We probably only know a small fraction of what NATO is actually doing on Ukraine's behalf. Today Russia cut off natural gas to Poland and Bulgaria in breach of contract supposedly. We can only speculate what would actually cause direct conflict between Russia and NATO. But we have probably never been closer to it happening.

[Soloist]

Anyone who is in question of what happened that I find factual just needs to read the Chernovtsi chronicles issue 628... A person from our church knows the doctor in question and served over there for 15 years only recently left just prior to outbreak of war. This is a reliable account, where as there are parts clearly from the official Ukrainian government in here, there is also a cleaned up version of what the doctor who treated some of these girls. These girls are first hand victims of Russian war crimes and while yes war crimes involving rape do happen in almost every war that doesn't discredit the fact that the Russians attempted to kill them after violently molesting them and torturing them. The cleaned up version is still fairly graphic...

[Josh]

Have you actually read the MIM report? have you followed their accounts historically? these are first hand accounts from known people for prior to the war and established.

One of the aspects of war propaganda is to twist truth to tell mistruths. As I keep saying, that means painting the "enemy" as committing terrible atrocities (some of which may be true), but leaving out the context of how many of those atrocities also happen in peacetime, or how many the propagandist is perpetrating against their enemies.

For this reason, there is nothing to be gained for the Christian from reading what is obvious war propaganda. (I don't sit around reading Russian propaganda either, but MennoNet does not seem like a place where very many people are in danger of that.) Sensational stories hand-crafted to appeal to evangelicals, like "the Russians are so bad, but here we are doing good, convincing the innocent Ukrainians not to have abortions" are exactly the kind of political chum we should stay away from.

Ukraine has a higher abortion rate (15) although it is not as high as it used to be. But generally, the culture there has been diseased just like the rest of the former with USSR with excessive abortion:

Zelenskyy stated that abortion should not be banned, that to get an abortion is a personal choice, and that there needs to be less impingement on human freedom.

Not that we in America can throw stones. We have a high rate too (11) and it's also legal here.

[Josh]

Anyone who is in question of what happened that I find factual just needs to read the Chernovtsi chronicles issue 628... A person from our church knows the doctor in question and served over there for 15 years only recently left just prior to outbreak of war. This is a reliable account, where as there are parts clearly from the official Ukrainian government in here, there is also a cleaned up version of what the doctor who treated some of these girls. These girls are first hand victims of Russian war crimes and while yes war crimes involving rape do happen in almost every war that doesn't discredit the fact that the Russians attempted to kill them after violently molesting them and torturing them. The cleaned up version is still fairly graphic...

The fact it is so emotive (with people who have no idea what actually happened "very sure" it is factual) is exactly how people get whipped up into thinking fighting back and "defensive" wars are okay. What is the next step? Go track down the perpetrators and kill them?

Is it a "reliable account"? You say "a person from our church knows the doctor in question". How well do they know them? What is the likelihood this doctor is either (a) sympathetic to repeating government propaganda, or (b) required to do so by state intelligence?

When you run across highly emotive but obviously second and third hand information like this, the best question to ask is, "What emotions is this trying to stir up in me?" It is certainly not one that is trying to stir up peace. It is, instead, one that calls for yet more violence. The West is the most powerful empire on earth. Think cautiously before giving in to their propaganda.

[Soloist]

The fact it is so emotive (with people who have no idea what actually happened "very sure" it is factual) is exactly how people get whipped up into thinking fighting back and "defensive" wars are okay. What is the next step? Go track down the perpetrators and kill them?

Is it a "reliable account"? You say "a person from our church knows the doctor in question". How well do they know them? What is the likelihood this doctor is either (a) sympathetic to repeating government propaganda, or (b) required to do so by state intelligence?

When you run across highly emotive but obviously second and third hand information like this, the best question to ask is, "What emotions is this trying to stir up in me?" It is certainly not one that is trying to stir up peace. It is, instead, one that calls for yet more violence. The West is the most powerful empire on earth. Think cautiously before giving in to their propaganda.

Josh, I am very anti-war, I served in the military. You should know my stance and I would support the people who are interested in supporting these girls especially the ones who chose to keep the unborn child. That is the response of a Christian... I'm annoyed that they are not allowed to give anything to these girls yet that only the police and medical can talk to them but at least a Christian was in a singular place to influence them for life of those babies.
I have called out most of the propaganda posted on here as suspect, I would call out the atrocities that Ukraine possibly committed in the separatist held area's. It certainly seems like you believe that account and have used dramatic language in your positions of defending Russia's actions.
I wash my hands of this discussion as I see it as fruitless and we will continue to believe what we believe.