Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
GaryK

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by GaryK »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:10 pm
Do you see the modern safe space ideology, as HK described it, corresponding with Jesus? If not, then why not simply use NT biblical terms to describe your 3 points above rather than a term used in ideologies that are anti-Christ?
I don't think it is necessary to get caught in political "word wars," comrade Gary. I also value equity and equality. And I value a protestant work ethic and individual responsibility. It feels foolish to me to get caught up in political terminology either for or against. So I find myself not wanting to play that game at all. Safe places are good. I'd rather be like Tom Bombadil. (See if you get that reference =).
I'm curious if you were using such terms before they became quite popular in recent history. If you have been using them all along, I am not going to quibble with your usage of them to describe what you are attempting to do at your school. If, however, you have started using them because they are popular ideas in the anti-racism community, then it would seem that you are involving yourself in "word wars".

No, I don't get the reference to Bombadil. :oops:
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joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:32 pm
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:10 pm
Do you see the modern safe space ideology, as HK described it, corresponding with Jesus? If not, then why not simply use NT biblical terms to describe your 3 points above rather than a term used in ideologies that are anti-Christ?
I don't think it is necessary to get caught in political "word wars," comrade Gary. I also value equity and equality. And I value a protestant work ethic and individual responsibility. It feels foolish to me to get caught up in political terminology either for or against. So I find myself not wanting to play that game at all. Safe places are good. I'd rather be like Tom Bombadil. (See if you get that reference =).
I'm curious if you were using such terms before they became quite popular in recent history. If you have been using them all along, I am not going to quibble with your usage of them to describe what you are attempting to do at your school. If, however, you have started using them because they are popular ideas in the anti-racism community, then it would seem that you are involving yourself in "word wars".

No, I don't get the reference to Bombadil. :oops:
Well I am not aware that my use of the term comes from any political movement. Usually at the beginning of the school year we explain we want to the school to be a safe place for all students. And that we also want it to be safe for teachers. We talk about what a safe school like that would feel like. What are the conditions for such a school? How do the people act? What actions make it not feel safe? (Gossip, slander, bullying, racial jokes, ethnic jokes, immigrant jokes, fat jokes, blond jokes, belittling students, griping about teachers to your friends, etc - those things are the opposite of community, that is communion.)

That said, there is a kernel of truth in the modern usage as well. People deserve respect. They are made in God's image. That said, I do not endorse components of much of the ideology around the modern usage. But I don't want to cede the word "safe."

Tom Bombadil was a character in Lord of the Rings that refused to get involved in the power plays of the "good and bad" forces. And because he was free from the desire to dominate, he was also unable to be dominated. The ring had no power on him.
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GaryK

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by GaryK »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:37 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:32 pm
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:10 pm

I don't think it is necessary to get caught in political "word wars," comrade Gary. I also value equity and equality. And I value a protestant work ethic and individual responsibility. It feels foolish to me to get caught up in political terminology either for or against. So I find myself not wanting to play that game at all. Safe places are good. I'd rather be like Tom Bombadil. (See if you get that reference =).
I'm curious if you were using such terms before they became quite popular in recent history. If you have been using them all along, I am not going to quibble with your usage of them to describe what you are attempting to do at your school. If, however, you have started using them because they are popular ideas in the anti-racism community, then it would seem that you are involving yourself in "word wars".

No, I don't get the reference to Bombadil. :oops:
Well I am not aware that my use of the term comes from any political movement. Usually at the beginning of the school year we explain we want to the school to be a safe place for all students. And that we also want it to be safe for teachers. We talk about what a safe school like that would feel like. What are the conditions for such a school? How do the people act? What actions make it not feel safe? (Gossip, slander, bullying, racial jokes, ethnic jokes, immigrant jokes, fat jokes, blond jokes, belittling students, griping about teachers to your friends, etc - those things are the opposite of community, that is communion.)

That said, there is a kernel of truth in the modern usage as well. People deserve respect. They are made in God's image. That said, I do not endorse components of much of the ideology around the modern usage. But I don't want to cede the word "safe."

Tom Bombadil was a character in Lord of the Rings that refused to get involved in the power plays of the "good and bad" forces. And because he was free from the desire to dominate, he was also unable to be dominated. The ring had no power on him.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by Ken »

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:32 pm
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:10 pm
Do you see the modern safe space ideology, as HK described it, corresponding with Jesus? If not, then why not simply use NT biblical terms to describe your 3 points above rather than a term used in ideologies that are anti-Christ?
I don't think it is necessary to get caught in political "word wars," comrade Gary. I also value equity and equality. And I value a protestant work ethic and individual responsibility. It feels foolish to me to get caught up in political terminology either for or against. So I find myself not wanting to play that game at all. Safe places are good. I'd rather be like Tom Bombadil. (See if you get that reference =).
I'm curious if you were using such terms before they became quite popular in recent history. If you have been using them all along, I am not going to quibble with your usage of them to describe what you are attempting to do at your school. If, however, you have started using them because they are popular ideas in the anti-racism community, then it would seem that you are involving yourself in "word wars".

No, I don't get the reference to Bombadil. :oops:
Honestly I think that academia tends to ruin most things and concepts when it takes something simple and understandable and conflates it into an enormous arcane elaborate monstrosity.

We see this with the concept of racism which most people innately understand in the real world. But don't necessarily understand academic discourse on the topic.

We see this with most theology where it doesn't matter what the denomination is, the discussions happening at academic seminaries are often unintelligible to the average person sitting in church on Sunday.

And we see it with things like "safe spaces" which most real world people like teachers and employers understand to simply mean providing an environment free of bullying and abuse while academia seems to have taken the concept in various other esoteric directions.

What I have learned over the years working in a field with a lot of academic discourse is that the audience is mostly just other academics. And all you generate is pointless confusion and annoyance when you try to generalize or expand technical academic debates into the real world.

Words do matter. But the real-world definitions of terms are usually more important and relevant to daily life than esoteric academic definitions.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by Josh »

“Safe space” is not a term that existed before academics came up with it.

Anyone using this term knows it’s a politically loaded term. There is no need to announce at school, “This is a safe space,” unless one had already decided to choose a political allegiance.

JBG claims his true north is Jesus - it would be interesting if he used the same terms Jesus and the Bible do, instead of worldly terms. I can’t find the term “safe space” in my New Testament at all.
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temporal1

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by temporal1 »

jbg:
.. Tom Bombadil was a character in Lord of the Rings that refused to get involved in the power plays of the "good and bad" forces. And because he was free from the desire to dominate, he was also unable to be dominated. The ring had no power on him.
Your approach is identical to my dear precious mother’s 1916-2006, who, in the (1960-70’s) was saddened to see a favorite word of her lifetime, “gay,” hijacked. She tried to refuse to acknowledge it, i respected her and her wishes, to this day, i do not use the hijacked form, and, sadly, i avoid any use of the word, as it has been made a prideful banner for the hijacked use, close to exclusivity.

When i use the words homosexual or sodomy, i’m often chided for insensitivity/lack of respect.

Certainly, my dear mother with her junior high level formal education, and whatever level formal education any person has, has the right to personal opinions, philosophies, habits, et al. In the U.S., that was formerly a valued personal freedom. My mother, and now my grown daughter (with a university degree) both hold strong beliefs that others should be able to “read their minds.”
And then comply. Because, “you know,” they are simply+obviously right and that should be sufficient. They are informal laypersons. They aren’t professional educators.

i’m surprised to find these stated traits/philosophies in one who meets this description:
Page 8:
HK:
.. This then JBG is why, Josh, the Admiral [GaryK] and myself have offered such pushback against your doubling-down on the use of 'safe space' to describe the program you're enacting at EMS.

Not because we disagree with your methods, broadly speaking, but because the term itself comes loaded with added layers of meaning that you, well-read and intelligent person that you are, are aware of and are either choosing to elide [elude] or ignore.

jbg,
i’m beyond impressed at the quality+depth of caring effort directed personally to you from some of the most insightful members present on this forum. they have no obligation to devote a moment to you for any reason. yet here you are generously and freely gifted. i see it as priceless. i hope you benefit. i do. every time i read. gifts of grace.

esp because you are evidently in position that directly affects many others who rely upon you, i hope their efforts aren’t ignored.
these men are
jbg:
.. They are real people with names. They matter. They are image bearers.
These men are experienced in walking the talk of their faith. Jesus is their True North, as you might say. i implore you to take it all in. In your position, you need all the support you can get. God does not leave you alone, to your own devices.

i pray for you, your loved ones, your students and school to be protected+led by the Holy Spirit.
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temporal1

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:59 am “Safe space” is not a term that existed before academics came up with it.

Anyone using this term knows it’s a politically loaded term. There is no need to announce at school, “This is a safe space,” unless one had already decided to choose a political allegiance.

JBG claims his true north is Jesus - it would be interesting if he used the same terms Jesus and the Bible do, instead of worldly terms. I can’t find the term “safe space” in my New Testament at all.

The unstated underlying motivator is forging ahead for political power+protections, promotion, access to the public treasury, freedom to be normalized throught the DOE, and, possibly as jbg represents, adoption throughout private and faith-based institutions, because “it sounds like Jesus.” (yeah. i see it! that’s no accident.) seductive as can be.

the sum value of all these things combined cannot be monetized. Evil plays chess.

Attempting to “play a little chess” is like playing with fire. Christians are specially vulnerable. So much crash+burn.
Dear Quote Investigator:
A cautionary statement about statecraft has often been attributed to George Washington. Here are three versions:

1) Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
2) Government, like fire, is a troublesome servant and a terrible master.
3) A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master. .. ..


For myself, when trying to assess “what does this mean?” - i TRY to discern if there is a direct connection to the public treasury.
BIG CLUE. If it’s about pirating the public treasury .. well, that’s not of Jesus Christ.
It could have been!! Jesus had every opp to go straight to earthly governments of the day. He did not. Not one penny.

At all times: Be aware of who and/or what is leading your leaders.
Ken:
Honestly I think that academia tends to ruin most things and concepts when it takes something simple and understandable and conflates it into an enormous arcane elaborate monstrosity. .. ..
This is in the ballpark, but ignores the key components,
1) access to the public treasury; and just as important, 2) the “force of the sword.”

The pattern established over decades following MLK Jr.
As many speculate, if MLK Jr were to return today, he would likely first, be devastated, second, want a do over.
Secularists have exploited his dream beyond recognition. With loads of help from well-meaning Christians.
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PetrChelcicky

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by PetrChelcicky »

I beg your pardon - but I had not expected that there would be so much posts and I am unable to follow and reflect all of them.
Some major points are, imho:
1. "Safe" is fine with me as long as it doesn't exclude all kinds of mutual criticism, including "hurtful" factual statements. But just there lies the problem. I agree that we ought to express ourselves as non-hurtful as possible, but not at the cost of truth (Teachers here must know the problem. To a degree we have to teach pupils how to cope with the hurt to be criticised.)
2. If we want safe spaces we must accept safe spaces for everyone, not only women or PoC. The original meaning of "safe" is physically safe - there seem to be a lot of spaces where Whites are not safe physically.
3. If we trust the Bible, tribalism is a well known human behaviour at least since the tower of Babylon. So is "white racism" something completely different from "normal tribalism"? And in what way?
4. I am not very concerned about tribal jokes in a construction crew. How many women want to work in a construction crew? And have there been any Blacks who wanted to work in that construction crew? We ought to resolve real conflicts. Totalitarianism can be defined as an attempt to prevent all possible conflicts from the start.
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GaryK

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by GaryK »

Lawmakers strike the word ‘marijuana’ from all state laws, calling term racist
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/lawmak ... H53CYOJXE/

Is anything not racist anymore?
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Josh

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by Josh »

GaryK wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:52 am
Lawmakers strike the word ‘marijuana’ from all state laws, calling term racist
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/lawmak ... H53CYOJXE/

Is anything not racist anymore?
Opposition to the liberal agenda is "racist", which now includes openly promoting drug abuse.

Wanting to see people not afflicted by drug addiction also counts as "racist". Of course, the people behind this are people with big money who stand earn big profits by promoting drug use. It should be of no surprise that they take advantage of calling opposition to their wicked schemes "racist", since the secular mainstream has no concept of evil outside of "racism" anymore.
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