Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

[joey_the_ox]

To solve this we have educational/discipleship conversations about what race means in America...we often talk through Ruby Bridges, the 16th street bombing and the siblings that are still alive bearing sensitivity, discipling for humility that we don't actually know what it is like to be a person of color in America. etc. The goal is real empathy, humility, and a seeing all as image bearers of God.

joshuabgood - don't know if you have come across MartyrMade or not but I highly recommend the first episode of his Jim Jones podcast series. It is where I first learned about the Cicero race riot of 1951. Not sure if it is appropriate for a high school setting or not - it would depend on the maturity of the students and would definitely require a preview from the teacher. (The following episodes are also highly recommended but become more and more less appropriate for high school.)

[HondurasKeiser]

Yes, that seems good. In a Christian institution (say a missions board or a school) I might categorize that prohibition differently than 'safety' perhaps something like, "pure, clean, beautiful speech that recognizes the inherent dignity of all" but nevertheless we agree that such things ought to be verboten in our settings. It's sad to me that your Anabaptist construction crew used such speech and held such attitudes about other people.

I am fine with your language. I am also fine with saying we want safe spaces for everyone. That is what I want EMS to be. It is not just self centered improvement but actually caring for other people and their wellbeing. The lack of appropriate communication stems from a lack of empathy...or plainly, love.

FWIW - it isn't relegated to construction crews. Here at EMS we have dealt with semi-routinely, racial comments made by students from your conference (as well as others) that are mostly ignorance and not malicious, but still racist and hurtful, and keeps school from being safe for some. In the past 4-5 years on multiple occasions with different students and their parents I have confronted race/immigrant based jokes, Asian eyes jokes ethnic based jokes, comments made more than once, to people of color - usually adopted students - like 'your my slave" etc. In other cases a comment on buses to a student of color that "black lives don't matter" when driving by BLM signs. These are of course by children and youths and I expect no less. Racism is an inherent part of the sinful human propensity toward partiality and tribalism. It manifests itself individually and with culture...with in groups. And children pick up attitudes around them as well toward immigrants, BLM, etc.

To solve this we have educational/discipleship conversations about what race means in America...we often talk through Ruby Bridges, the 16th street bombing and the siblings that are still alive bearing sensitivity, discipling for humility that we don't actually know what it is like to be a person of color in America. etc. The goal is real empathy, humility, and a seeing all as image bearers of God.

We have real work to do around seeing all people as image bearers of God and loving them like we do ourselves and wanting for them (including at the border) what we would want for ourselves. So Mr. Guyton's work I think is really appropriate and whether it is called making safe spaces or keeping our conduct holy is really a red herring.

I am not sure that it is. We are commanded to be holy in our conduct both as individuals and as a corporate body of believers. There's no such biblical injunction towards safety or inclusivity, which are thoroughly modern, academic terms in the sense that they are intentionally freighted with layered meaning bent towards a particular and often political agenda. Holiness is a striving towards Christ-likeness; safetyism and DEI are not. I'd argue that holiness, calling Christians to Christ-likeness, gets us closer to racial harmony or a deconstruction of racial barriers (in the Church) far better than implementations of academic and sociological constructions that are built not on an understanding of Christ as the great Unifier, Universal or common Rock but rather built on assumptions of unbridgeable difference, identity-group consciousness and an oppressor/oppressed dialectic.

[joshuabgood]

Yes, that seems good. In a Christian institution (say a missions board or a school) I might categorize that prohibition differently than 'safety' perhaps something like, "pure, clean, beautiful speech that recognizes the inherent dignity of all" but nevertheless we agree that such things ought to be verboten in our settings. It's sad to me that your Anabaptist construction crew used such speech and held such attitudes about other people.

I am fine with your language. I am also fine with saying we want safe spaces for everyone. That is what I want EMS to be. It is not just self centered improvement but actually caring for other people and their wellbeing. The lack of appropriate communication stems from a lack of empathy...or plainly, love.

FWIW - it isn't relegated to construction crews. Here at EMS we have dealt with semi-routinely, racial comments made by students from your conference (as well as others) that are mostly ignorance and not malicious, but still racist and hurtful, and keeps school from being safe for some. In the past 4-5 years on multiple occasions with different students and their parents I have confronted race/immigrant based jokes, Asian eyes jokes ethnic based jokes, comments made more than once, to people of color - usually adopted students - like 'your my slave" etc. In other cases a comment on buses to a student of color that "black lives don't matter" when driving by BLM signs. These are of course by children and youths and I expect no less. Racism is an inherent part of the sinful human propensity toward partiality and tribalism. It manifests itself individually and with culture...with in groups. And children pick up attitudes around them as well toward immigrants, BLM, etc.

To solve this we have educational/discipleship conversations about what race means in America...we often talk through Ruby Bridges, the 16th street bombing and the siblings that are still alive bearing sensitivity, discipling for humility that we don't actually know what it is like to be a person of color in America. etc. The goal is real empathy, humility, and a seeing all as image bearers of God.

We have real work to do around seeing all people as image bearers of God and loving them like we do ourselves and wanting for them (including at the border) what we would want for ourselves. So Mr. Guyton's work I think is really appropriate and whether it is called making safe spaces or keeping our conduct holy is really a red herring.

I am not sure that it is. We are commanded to be holy in our conduct both as individuals and as a corporate body of believers. There's no such biblical injunction towards safety or inclusivity, which are thoroughly modern, academic terms in the sense that they are intentionally freighted with layered meaning bent towards a particular and often political agenda. Holiness is a striving towards Christ-likeness; safetyism and DEI are not. I'd argue that holiness, calling Christians to Christ-likeness, gets us closer to racial harmony or a deconstruction of racial barriers (in the Church) far better than implementations of academic and sociological constructions that are built not on an understanding of Christ as the great Unifier, Universal or common Rock but rather built on assumptions of unbridgeable difference, identity-group consciousness and an oppressor/oppressed dialectic.

Because I don't bother with the politics, I am unafraid to take the words at face value. So making a community feel safe for people is an idea I have no issues with and I will refrain from reading in political "intentions."

As for the word holiness, it really is derived from the idea of "wholeness." We often associate purely with religious/mystical meanings. I am for wholeness and being conformed to the image of Christ. Not merely as a self improvement, individualistic self betterment program, but as a response to empathetic love for others.

I think we should all be able to agree that the conditions I documented and have observed through low inference evidence create an unsafe environment for some people. And demonstrate a lack of empathetic love that follows the teachings of Jesus in the Golden Rule. All the rest is pure politics. And people feel it so strongly that on this very page people who don't even know Mr. Guyton are willing to use "golden calf" metaphors to put down his efforts to live out teachings of Jesus. That is where the issue lies.

[HondurasKeiser]

Honestly, racism in this country (and race itself) is largely an invention by white people for the purpose expanding white power over the lands, possessions, labor, and freedom of others. And in more recent times, for hording privilege such as access to jobs, benefits, education, etc.

As a white invention and white problem it shouldn't have fall on people of color like Mr. Guyton to solve racism. It is something that white people should be taking the lead on. Unfortunately that often doesn't seem to happen.

So, for instance, what are you doing to 'solve racism'?

I confront it when I see it in friends, co-workers, family, etc.
I do not tolerate it when I see it or encounter it in students and/or subordinates
I make deliberate efforts to be inclusive and to question or examine blind spots that I might have related to race
I don't support politicians, businesses, and other organizations that make racist appeals.

And generally speaking try to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

These are great things Ken, I mean that sincerely. I think I am uncomfortable though with the idea that 'white people' alone are responsible for solving racism in this country. My problem with that statement is two-fold:
1. 'Solving racism' in this country or that (because it's alive and well in Honduras too) seems like a Sisyphean task. What would that even look like exactly.? Indeed, your activity in that direction is almost entirely localized to the people and situations you encounter in your everyday life. Which while noble and good, isn't going to 'solve racism' in the U.S. or even Washington State. Of course you might say, well all "White People" should do likewise - which is true but also rather like saying 'everyone should become a follower of Jesus'. A nice idea but just an idea, unfortunately.
2. That is of course because the ability to be racist, to think hateful, prejudicial thoughts about someone by dint of their race/ethnicity alone, is a trap that every human can fall into...even people that are "marginalized". Which of course means that even Mr. Guyton or you or me could at times be racist. Which means then too that racism is unsolvable because it's a sinful trap we all are susceptible to and the best we can do as individuals (including Mr. Guyton) is much like what you've elucidated above in your list of actions.

[joshuabgood]

Solving racism is like saying solving greed, or lust, or avarice...or any other vice. It will never be put fully to rest. Just like all kids say "mine" instinctively. We need to constantly address, confront, and teach against it at the individual and social level.

[HondurasKeiser]

Because I don't bother with the politics, I am unafraid to take the words at face value. So making a community feel safe for people is an idea I have no issues with and I will refrain from reading in political "intentions."

As for the word holiness, it really is derived from the idea of "wholeness." We often associate purely with religious/mystical meanings. I am for wholeness and being conformed to the image of Christ. Not merely as a self improvement, individualistic self betterment program, but as a response to empathetic love for others.

I think we should all be able to agree that the conditions I documented and have observed through low inference evidence create an unsafe environment for some people. And demonstrate a lack of empathetic love that follows the teachings of Jesus in the Golden Rule. All the rest is pure politics. And people feel it so strongly that on this very page people who don't even know Mr. Guyton are willing to use "golden calf" metaphors to put down his efforts to live out teachings of Jesus. That is where the issue lies.

I am no philologist, perhaps Boot or other have some insight into the etymology of Holy & Holiness but this is what a quick Google search of the words gave me for both the Hebrew idea of holiness (Kodesh) and the Old English root of 'holy':

What is the root word for holiness?
The Hebrew Words for Holiness

In this way, the Hebrew word for “holy”, kodesh, comes from the root word “Kadash”. In simpler terms, it means to be set apart for a specific purpose (Ancient Hebrew Lexicon, vituralbookword.com publishing, Jeff Benner).Feb 7, 2016

Hebrew Meaning of Holy - Set Apart For A Purpose — FIRM Israelhttps://firmisrael.org › learn › hebrew-meaning-holy-set-a...
Search for: What is the root word for holiness?
What is the root word of Holy?
The adjective holy comes from the Old English word hālig and is related to the German word heilig, meaning “blessed.” There is a relationship between holy and whole, and the religious sense probably developed from keeping believers spiritually whole — and pure.

Holy - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

I like your idea of 'Wholeness' but in terms of an injunction towards treating everyone with love regardless of race or class; the notion of being set apart and operating differently from the world as explicated above, for me at least carries a lot more weight and actually seems a lot less 'self-helpy'.

[Ken]

So, for instance, what are you doing to 'solve racism'?

I confront it when I see it in friends, co-workers, family, etc.
I do not tolerate it when I see it or encounter it in students and/or subordinates
I make deliberate efforts to be inclusive and to question or examine blind spots that I might have related to race
I don't support politicians, businesses, and other organizations that make racist appeals.

And generally speaking try to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

These are great things Ken, I mean that sincerely. I think I am uncomfortable though with the idea that 'white people' alone are responsible for solving racism in this country. My problem with that statement is two-fold:
1. 'Solving racism' in this country or that (because it's alive and well in Honduras too) seems like a Sisyphean task. What would that even look like exactly.? Indeed, your activity in that direction is almost entirely localized to the people and situations you encounter in your everyday life. Which while noble and good, isn't going to 'solve racism' in the U.S. or even Washington State. Of course you might say, well all "White People" should do likewise - which is true but also rather like saying 'everyone should become a follower of Jesus'. A nice idea but just an idea, unfortunately.
2. That is of course because the ability to be racist, to think hateful, prejudicial thoughts about someone by dint of their race/ethnicity alone, is a trap that every human can fall into...even people that are "marginalized". Which of course means that even Mr. Guyton or you or me could at times be racist. Which means then too that racism is unsolvable because it's a sinful trap we all are susceptible to and the best we can do as individuals (including Mr. Guyton) is much like what you've elucidated above in your list of actions.

Oh, I agree. Solving racism is like solving poverty. It will probably never be "solved". But that doesn't mean we can't make incremental progress towards either one. We have made progress on both counts since the 19th century, for example.

My larger point is that racism as it exists in this country is largely an invention of white culture and white society. And so the PRIMARY burden for reversing it should fall on white culture. It shouldn't have to be the job of black people to fix. That is like asking poor people to fix the problems in society that exacerbate poverty.

[Josh]

Solving racism is like saying solving greed, or lust, or avarice...or any other vice. It will never be put fully to rest. Just like all kids say "mine" instinctively. We need to constantly address, confront, and teach against it at the individual and social level.

Except “racism” isn’t a sin listed in the Bible. It’s one that liberals decided to invent, who in turn claim all the sins in the Bible are actually virtues.

[joshuabgood]

The adjective holy comes from the Old English word hālig and is related to the German word heilig, meaning “blessed.” There is a relationship between holy and whole, and the religious sense probably developed from keeping believers spiritually whole — and pure. A place, object, or person who has been blessed can be described as holy, meaning "associated with God."

From vocabulary.com

[joshuabgood]

Solving racism is like saying solving greed, or lust, or avarice...or any other vice. It will never be put fully to rest. Just like all kids say "mine" instinctively. We need to constantly address, confront, and teach against it at the individual and social level.

Except “racism” isn’t a sin listed in the Bible. It’s one that liberals decided to invent, who in turn claim all the sins in the Bible are actually virtues.

Racism in the Bible is called partiality.