Contraceptive

[mike]

In a typical discussion like this, those who want to defend the liberal position tend to entirely focus on edge cases.

So let’s focus on the 99%, whilst acknowledging 1% of exceptions do exist.

If you think of me as defending the "liberal position" on birth control, fine. I prefer not to make more enemies than I have already by making harsh black and white statements that don't take into account the difficulties and special situations and that aren't clearly supported by biblical teaching.

My statements so far have been directed at young couples who put off having kids for 2-5 years. That is the norm, and these things people are not doing it for “health reasons” or some other passable excuse.

I certainly don't disagree with this.

[Josh]

In a typical discussion like this, those who want to defend the liberal position tend to entirely focus on edge cases.

So let’s focus on the 99%, whilst acknowledging 1% of exceptions do exist. My statements so far have been directed at young couples who put off having kids for 2-5 years. That is the norm, and these things people are not doing it for “health reasons” or some other passable excuse.

Actually no, it is the opposite.

The liberal position would be that birth control is fine to use for any reason.
It is ultra-conservatives who argue that birth control should be forbidden except for special "edge cases" and then spend time and effort trying to define what those special "edge cases" should or shouldn't be.

Ken, I'm talking about liberals and conservatives in our own circles.

Most of us conservative Anabaptists aren't very interested in what liberals who think gay marriage, polyamorous relationships with 3 men and 2 women, and people encouraging a 4 year old boy to try to pretend he is a girl have to say about marriage, the family, and birth control.

[Ken]

In a typical discussion like this, those who want to defend the liberal position tend to entirely focus on edge cases.

So let’s focus on the 99%, whilst acknowledging 1% of exceptions do exist. My statements so far have been directed at young couples who put off having kids for 2-5 years. That is the norm, and these things people are not doing it for “health reasons” or some other passable excuse.

Actually no, it is the opposite.

The liberal position would be that birth control is fine to use for any reason.
It is ultra-conservatives who argue that birth control should be forbidden except for special "edge cases" and then spend time and effort trying to define what those special "edge cases" should or shouldn't be.

Ken, I'm talking about liberals and conservatives in our own circles.

Most of us conservative Anabaptists aren't very interested in what liberals who think gay marriage, polyamorous relationships with 3 men and 2 women, and people encouraging a 4 year old boy to try to pretend he is a girl have to say about marriage, the family, and birth control.

There are, indeed, plenty of both liberals and conservatives within Anabaptist circles who think it is absolutely no business whatsoever of the church whether or not they use birth control. I expect your view is in the minority. In fact, this would be a good topic for a poll.

[Neto]

I think that God's main purpose for intimacy in marriage was/is to bind a man & a woman together spiritually and emotionally, to make them into husband and wife - in his own words, to make them one. That is the basis for a family. (Science has somewhat to say about how intimacy chemically helps create this mutual dedication or deep connection as well.) ....

I'm still curious what responses you all might have to my thinking on this. I know that Adam & Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply", but it is also stressed that "a man should leave his father & mother and cleave to his wife".

Not "offended" or upset that this post has been passed over so far, just would really like some push-back if you all think I'm wrong here. I also think that an immediate pregnancy right after marriage can sometimes place unnecessary strain on the new relationship as husband & wife. (I also have a relative who became pregnant on their "honeymoon", and this has often been an embarrassment to her, because the child was also born prematurely, meaning that the baby came inside of 9 months from the wedding.)

[Josh]

There are, indeed, plenty of both liberals and conservatives within Anabaptist circles who think it is absolutely no business whatsoever of the church whether or not they use birth control. I expect your view is in the minority. In fact, this would be a good topic for a poll.

That would probably be true of liberals.

Amongst conservative and plain Anabaptists, generally speaking, everything involving family and marriage is the business of the church. There is no concept of "absolutely no business whatsoever of the church"; this is not an Enlightenment individualistic liberty zone. The church makes it its business to know what kind of firearms you might have, what kind of thoughts you are having, and indeed what goes on in your bedroom. Certain things are either frowned upon or not permitted.

More liberal "conservative" Anabaptists would be less this way. In the more conservative types of churches, there is not a concept of absolute privacy. For example, certain deviant sexual acts are considered absolutely not acceptable for a married couple to engage in regardless of "consent" on the part of the couple. An example of this would be swinging.

[Josh]

I'm still curious what responses you all might have to my thinking on this. I know that Adam & Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply", but it is also stressed that "a man should leave his father & mother and cleave to his wife".

Does having a baby somehow prevent a man from leaving his father and mother?

Does it prevent him from "cleaving to his wife"?

Not "offended" or upset that this post has been passed over so far, just would really like some push-back if you all think I'm wrong here. I also think that an immediate pregnancy right after marriage can sometimes place unnecessary strain on the new relationship as husband & wife.

Then why did God design marriage and pregnancy to work that way?

(I also have a relative who became pregnant on their "honeymoon", and this has often been an embarrassment to her, because the child was also born prematurely, meaning that the baby came inside of 9 months from the wedding.)

Human gestation is on average 8 1/2 months long, and sometimes shorter. It is telling that this is considered "embarrassing".

[mike]

I think that God's main purpose for intimacy in marriage was/is to bind a man & a woman together spiritually and emotionally, to make them into husband and wife - in his own words, to make them one. That is the basis for a family. (Science has somewhat to say about how intimacy chemically helps create this mutual dedication or deep connection as well.) ....

I'm still curious what responses you all might have to my thinking on this. I know that Adam & Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply", but it is also stressed that "a man should leave his father & mother and cleave to his wife".

I don't see a problem with that idea. I think what we have been discussing here is the concept that procreation is the divinely ordered consequence of marital intimacy and that we should honor that.

[Ken]

I think that God's main purpose for intimacy in marriage was/is to bind a man & a woman together spiritually and emotionally, to make them into husband and wife - in his own words, to make them one. That is the basis for a family. (Science has somewhat to say about how intimacy chemically helps create this mutual dedication or deep connection as well.) ....

I'm still curious what responses you all might have to my thinking on this. I know that Adam & Eve were told to "be fruitful and multiply", but it is also stressed that "a man should leave his father & mother and cleave to his wife".

Not "offended" or upset that this post has been passed over so far, just would really like some push-back if you all think I'm wrong here. I also think that an immediate pregnancy right after marriage can sometimes place unnecessary strain on the new relationship as husband & wife. (I also have a relative who became pregnant on their "honeymoon", and this has often been an embarrassment to her, because the child was also born prematurely, meaning that the baby came inside of 9 months from the wedding.)

It sounds like a lot of people agree with you.

I am curious if there is actually any official teachings on this topic from within conservative Anabaptist church organizations. And if so, what those teachings or doctrines actually say. Is it part of any official church doctrine of any conservative Anabaptist church? Or is it just a subject for personal interpretation?

For example, the CMC conference (which I understand doesn't meet the definition of "conservative here") has a statement of practice that goes into great detail about a long list of subjects from baptism and communion to marriage, divorce, homosexuality, the role of men and women in the church and family, abortion, oath making, etc. etc. But makes absolutely no mention of contraception: https://cmcrosedale.org/wp-content/uplo ... -email.pdf

[Josh]

My denomination's official teaching is that birth control should be avoided, other than natural family planning. This is not taught over the pulpit, but just exists in denominational texts.

Couples regularly can and do use hormonal birth control, particularly young couples. There is a social stigma against a honeymoon pregnancy or having a baby within your first year of marriage, thus, the pressure to use hormonal birth control persists.

[joshuabgood]

I don't know of any official Mennonite doctrinal or practice statement regarding family planning unless involves speaking to the destruction of an embryo. If they do exist in any liberal of conservative Anabaptist statements can some one direct me to them?

I also don't know of any statements regarding any proscriptions on erotic behaviors, so long as those behaviours are in the wedding bed between a man and wife.

I think it is a safe assumption that the vast majority of liberal and conservative Anabaptists don't consider bedroom behaviors or family planning something to openly and publicly address or speak to. Some of it may be social mores concerning sex talk...but I don't think that accounts for all of it.