Szdfan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:52 pm
I think one of the assumptions of the post-WWII and post-Cold War eras is that a war of this magnitude couldn't happen again -- that Europe was too interconnected for this kind of aggressive behavior. Certainly, the war following the break up of Yugoslavia was terrible, but it was a mostly contained, regional conflict. The war in Ukraine feels bigger and more awful in every way. The brutality is unimaginable.
I hope and pray that civilians at least are able to leave the areas where these upcoming battles will happen. God help them.
Reportedly the Russians are trying to prevent civilians from evacuating under the assumption that having civilians around will make it harder for the defending Ukrainians who will presumably be more worried about civilian casualties than attacking Russians. Also there are reports that the Russians are forcing children in occupied cities to attend school rather than shelter at home, in effect using them as human shields against approaching Ukrainian troops.
The amount of propaganda that gets repeated in this thread is absurd. We almost need a "Glorious Russia defends against Ukrainian hordes 2022" thread to counterbalance it.
Or maybe we could just make a new forum subsection called "Pravda".
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:47 pm
The amount of propaganda that gets repeated in this thread is absurd. We almost need a "Glorious Russia defends against Ukrainian hordes 2022" thread to counterbalance it.
Or maybe we could just make a new forum subsection called "Pravda".
This is what we are talking about. Russians are deliberately targeting civilian train stations and highway corridors through which refugees from the Donbass are trying to evacuate. It is widely reported what they are doing. But I guess anything that makes Russia look bad is propaganda in your book? OK then. What you choose to condone defines you.
KYIV, Ukraine -- A missile hit a train station in eastern Ukraine where thousands had gathered Friday, killing at least 52 and wounding dozens more in an attack on a crowd of mostly women and children trying to flee a new, looming Russian offensive, Ukrainian authorities said.
The attack, denounced by some as yet another war crime in the 6-week-old conflict, came as workers unearthed bodies from a mass grave in Bucha, a town near Ukraine's capital where dozens of killings have been documented after a Russian pullout.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:47 pm
The amount of propaganda that gets repeated in this thread is absurd. We almost need a "Glorious Russia defends against Ukrainian hordes 2022" thread to counterbalance it.
Or maybe we could just make a new forum subsection called "Pravda".
This is what we are talking about. Russians are deliberately targeting civilian train stations and highway corridors through which refugees from the Donbass are trying to evacuate. It is widely reported what they are doing. But I guess anything that makes Russia look bad is propaganda in your book? OK then. What you choose to condone helps define you.
KYIV, Ukraine -- A missile hit a train station in eastern Ukraine where thousands had gathered Friday, killing at least 52 and wounding dozens more in an attack on a crowd of mostly women and children trying to flee a new, looming Russian offensive, Ukrainian authorities said.
The attack, denounced by some as yet another war crime in the 6-week-old conflict, came as workers unearthed bodies from a mass grave in Bucha, a town near Ukraine's capital where dozens of killings have been documented after a Russian pullout.
Ken, you've been cheerleading for Ukraine and denouncing Russia since this started. It's clear you do so because you hold nationalist sympathies for Western countries and against non-aligned countries. If you were only watching the media in India, China, and so forth, you'd be seeing an entirely different perspective.
If you wish to embrace nationalism and claim Western countries are better than India, China, and Russia, go right ahead, but at least be honest that that's what you're doing.
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:47 pm
The amount of propaganda that gets repeated in this thread is absurd. We almost need a "Glorious Russia defends against Ukrainian hordes 2022" thread to counterbalance it.
The following is a first hand account from a young man whose parents were missionaries in Ukraine. He met his wife- who is Ukrainian, there and they live in the states but he is in Poland presently working to help with the refugees coming into Poland and bring aid and do anything else he can. He gives daily updates as he can- this was from yesterday. Just to give a perspective of those who are on the front line.
Day 49
Third trip to Ukraine: complete.
The picture below is one I took yesterday while on a rooftop in beautiful L’viv. You can see the Ukrainian flag flying proudly above the skyline. There were lots of people out and about in the city, but they also have not begun to let their guard down. There are many wartime defenses in place and many important government locations (including administration buildings, infrastructure, and places of cultural significance) that are protected in a number of noticeable ways.
This last mission was mainly a medical mission. I drove a van filled with medicine that had just been flown in by another member of our team. This medicine will be distributed and put to use very quickly. No matter how full our vans are as we unload things, the rooms to which we deliver this aid are never full when we arrive again with the next batch. The team of Ukrainian volunteers at the church is working quickly and efficiently to distribute all the aid that they’re receiving.
While in Ukraine, news broke that a pro-Russian member of Ukrainian parliament – Viktor Medvechuk – had been apprehended through the fine work of the Ukrainian Security Services. Medvechuk is very closely tied to Putin and was under house arrest in February, but escaped not long after the invasion. In honor of International Cosmonaut Day, President Zelenskyy referred to him as a “space cadet” in his comments last night. He was particularly harsh as Medvechuk was caught wearing the camo of the Ukrainian armed forces as if he were a patriot. The plan was apparently to sneak out through the (illegally) Russian-held area of Moldova and then to Moscow.
On my way back to Poland, my job was to safely bring a Ukrainian girl back to Krakow so that she could grab a train and meet up with her family that was already in Europe. She is about 25 and we met up at our appointed time and place. She hopped right into the van before we had time to actually even introduce ourselves. I told her that, generally speaking, I consider it a bad idea to jump into some strange foreign guy’s van before you at least get his name. She got a laugh out of that, and my name, and we were off.
She evacuated from Kharkiv and the stories are just heartbreaking. Keep in mind this is only a portion of one young lady’s experience and that every Ukrainian now has stories like these. Kharkiv was hit by Russia early; the bombings continue and she is still feeling guilty for leaving… she’s feeling guilty for leaving! Her family immediately went to a bomb shelter on the 24th and, when they finally felt safe (or hungry) enough to do so, they left the shelter to get bread. The place where they bought it had bumped the price up to 48 Hryvnias for one loaf which was a bit higher than normal. They got bread for themselves and for their elderly neighbors. My new friend said she remembered thinking, “That’s so terrible if they raised the price of bread in order to benefit from the war and people’s suffering.” The next day, that same store was blown up by a Russian missile… and, even though she had wished them no harm, she was clearly feeling guilty about having those thoughts as she told me the story in the car… she’s feeling guilty over Russian attacks! There is so much guilt going around no matter what decision one makes.
She told me her grandmother lives in Kherson. She is 87 and the family decided not to tell her about the war because they were afraid for her health. She apparently had a difficult personality and was very much alone as no other family members live nearby. When Russian tanks rolled into her city, the family knew they had to tell her about the war for her own safety. She died days later and the family had to plan the burial knowing it would be impossible to attend. As they called everyone they could think of, they were being told by most something along the lines of: “Well… I guess we could bury her in someone’s backyard.”
For almost an hour, she recounted to me – a stranger – story after story. For most people, any ONE of those stories would be a life-shaping, critical moment of their life. Yet she ended her litany of stories the same way almost every other Ukrainian I’ve talked to does: “But, really, if you compare my story with what other people are going through, we’ve had it so easy!” No, my friend. No, you haven’t.
After crossing the border, we stopped at the welcome tents to get her the provided free cell phone service that would work in Poland and a sandwich. At this point, I’ve been through there enough that some of the aid workers recognize me. As we were pulling out, one of them stopped me and asked where I was going. When I told him I was headed to Krakow, he asked if I could take another woman and her teenage daughter with me who had just crossed the border. This woman left Kyiv the day after the invasion and had been in Western Ukraine with her daughter and boyfriend. Today, her boyfriend (who cannot cross the border as a young man) dropped them off and they crossed on foot. He set off for Kyiv.
Can you fathom the desperation required to hop into some weirdo foreigner’s van at a border crossing with nothing but a promise to get you to a train station? We spent some time talking through some of their experience. We stopped at a gas station and she and her daughter split a hot dog. The passengers then all got some rest. As we got closer to Krakow, she seemed to be growing a little bit nervous. When we arrived and unloaded their two small suitcases, she said she was “so uncomfortable” because I had brought them all that way and she thought she should pay something. I told her that we indeed needed to “settle up” and I gave her some cash (provided generously from many saints back home) and she was just frozen. She admitted that they had dwindling resources on her debit card account, and that, other than the cash I had handed her, she had $100 in her pocket. She has just a little more than that now, but she also has the knowledge that there are people she’s never met before that care about her, that are praying for her (although she is not herself a believer), and that this tangible help she received was given by many in the name of the heavenly Father they hope she will also come to know.
“As for me, I am poor and needy,
but the Lord takes thought for me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
do not delay, O my God!”
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:06 pmKen, you've been cheerleading for Ukraine and denouncing Russia since this started. It's clear you do so because you hold nationalist sympathies for Western countries and against non-aligned countries. If you were only watching the media in India, China, and so forth, you'd be seeing an entirely different perspective.
If you wish to embrace nationalism and claim Western countries are better than India, China, and Russia, go right ahead, but at least be honest that that's what you're doing.
First, there are no non-aligned countries in this conflict unless you count Ukraine. Russia is part of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) and even its fellow aligned countries are looking askance at what they are doing.
Second, as usual you when you don't actually have an intelligent response you fly off into tangents and straw men. If what I wrote was incorrect, feel free to point it out. But I suspect even if you read Indian media you will find reports of Russians targeting civilians who are trying to evacuate the Donbass. In fact, it took me all of 10 seconds to find such information. for example from the Times of India:
KRAMATORSK: Bodies, packed bags and stuffed animals were flung to the ground outside the Ukrainian train station in the city of Kramatorsk after two rockets slammed into the busy hub for evacuees.
Earlier in the morning, AFP saw dozens of people throng the station desperate to flee a feared Russian advance on eastern Ukraine.
"I was in the station. I heard like a double explosion. I rushed to the wall for protection," said a woman searching for her passport among the abandoned belongings on the ground.
"I saw people covered in blood coming into the station and bodies everywhere on the ground. I don't know if they were just injured or dead," the woman told AFP.
Twenty bodies, all dressed in civilian clothing, were grouped and lying under plastic sheets next to a kiosk daubed yellow and blue -- the colours of Ukraine's flag -- outside the station, where blood pooled on the ground.
Four burnt out cars could be seen nearby along with the military-green remains of a rocket lay just next to the building and scrawled with the words "for our children" in white paint.
The toll from the strikes rose throughout the morning with Ukraine's SBU security service saying least 39 people had been killed, including at least four children.
Kramatorsk had been hit by Russian strikes earlier this week but had been otherwise spared the destruction witnessed by other eastern Ukraine cities since Russia's invasion.
Last edited by Ken on Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
The amount of nationalism on display in that quote is impressive. Let's enumerate it:
#1. Declaring warm feelings for a national flag. I have nothing against various country's flags, but I don't believe in doing things like pledging allegiance to the flag.
#2. Denouncing the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic as "illegally held by Russia", which is not an accurate description of the situation in the PMR at all.
#3. Praising the Ukrainian equivalent of the CIA/FBI or secret police.
#4. Believing that God is somehow on their side, much like those who wore the insignia "Gott mit uns".
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:06 pmKen, you've been cheerleading for Ukraine and denouncing Russia since this started. It's clear you do so because you hold nationalist sympathies for Western countries and against non-aligned countries. If you were only watching the media in India, China, and so forth, you'd be seeing an entirely different perspective.
If you wish to embrace nationalism and claim Western countries are better than India, China, and Russia, go right ahead, but at least be honest that that's what you're doing.
First, there are no non-aligned countries in this conflict.
Here's a picture of the non-aligned countries for a reminder:
Second, as usual you when you don't actually have an intelligent response you fly off into tangents and straw men. If what I wrote was incorrect, feel free to point it out. But I suspect even if you read Indian media you will find reports of Russians targeting civilians who trying to evacuate the Donbass. In fact, it took me all of 10 seconds to find such information. for example from the Times of India:
[snip]
It is sad that you don't see how it is obvious propaganda to always portray the Ukrainians as brave, fearless, and noble warriors, but always portray the Russians as evil child-murdering hordes trying to shoot civilians trying to escape. Perhaps the actual truth is somewhere between those two polar points.
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:06 pmKen, you've been cheerleading for Ukraine and denouncing Russia since this started. It's clear you do so because you hold nationalist sympathies for Western countries and against non-aligned countries. If you were only watching the media in India, China, and so forth, you'd be seeing an entirely different perspective.
If you wish to embrace nationalism and claim Western countries are better than India, China, and Russia, go right ahead, but at least be honest that that's what you're doing.
First, there are no non-aligned countries in this conflict.
Here's a picture of the non-aligned countries for a reminder:
Second, as usual you when you don't actually have an intelligent response you fly off into tangents and straw men. If what I wrote was incorrect, feel free to point it out. But I suspect even if you read Indian media you will find reports of Russians targeting civilians who trying to evacuate the Donbass. In fact, it took me all of 10 seconds to find such information. for example from the Times of India:
[snip]
It is sad that you don't see how it is obvious propaganda to always portray the Ukrainians as brave, fearless, and noble warriors, but always portray the Russians as evil child-murdering hordes trying to shoot civilians trying to escape. Perhaps the actual truth is somewhere between those two polar points.
Russia is not a non-aligned country. They are part of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) which they founded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectiv ... ganization which is organized and operates much the same as NATO.
And if you follow your own Wikipedia link, you will find that Russia is not a member of the non-aligned movement. They have "observer status" so they can hang out and watch. But they are not a member.
Last edited by Ken on Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
