LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Josh]

Well...my counselor once told me "Josh, you can't really force/coerce anybody to do anything important." This was in the context of my children whom I was trying to coerce into certain behaviors I desired. I was resistant to that at the time. Where I am at now, I have a dim view, generally, of corporal punishment. I think our authority needs to be like Jesus, a moral authority. Not authority like the scribes/phariseees, a positional authority with the power to coerce.

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

It is difficult to reconcile an anti-corporal punishment position with scripture.

Is a shepherd's rod used to beat the sheep?

What do you think a clear reading of this scripture is? Do you think this verse in Proverbs is not talking about corporal punishment, but some "kinder, gentler" use of "the rod"?

[Josh]

The Palestinians and their Arab allies have been CHOOSING war for 75 years. Yes, Palestine is currently a political quagmire and modern 21st century Israel is also complicit. But at countless points in the past 75 years the Palestinians (or their leaders) have chosen war over seeking peaceful settlement. The Ukraine situation is different. Ukraine did not attack Russia and did not elect to engage in a war with Russia. They were attacked. I'm sure the Ukrainians would be happy to rewind the clock back to February 23, 2022 and seek peaceful negotiations instead. So the parallels are weak at best.

I'm not quite sure how they "chose war" when they were just living, minding their own business and then suddenly another people group moves in that starts kicking them out of their homes.

I agree that, pragmatically, it wasn't a good idea to fight back. But it's unreasonable to claim they were any different than Ukraine. They were attacked as much as you can claim the Ukraine was attacked.

[joshuabgood]

joshuabgood, are you advocating for putting "disciple" instead of "discipline" in the Hebrews passage? Do you think that fits the context and how the original readers of that passage would have understood it?

The word discipline is derived from disciple.

Yes, but do you think the translation of the Hebrews passage is wrong? If so, could you provide an argument for that (preferably examining the original Greek)?

I don't know Greek...so no. I can't. I do know though that discipline originally was aligned with the word disciple. Not punishment or consequences...like we use it today.

[joshuabgood]

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

It is difficult to reconcile an anti-corporal punishment position with scripture.

Is a shepherd's rod used to beat the sheep?

Is a shepherd's rod the referent of the quoted passage? If you think it is, could you provide an argument for that reading, as opposed to just dismissing Scripture that doesn't work in your nonviolent hermeneutic?

Is asking a question the same as "just dismissing" in your view? If so...why? (Beyond that as I mentioned before I don't take a flat view of scripture...)

[joey_the_ox]

The word discipline is derived from disciple.

Yes, but do you think the translation of the Hebrews passage is wrong? If so, could you provide an argument for that (preferably examining the original Greek)?

I don't know Greek...so no. I can't. I do know though that discipline originally was aligned with the word disciple. Not punishment or consequences...like we use it today.

Are you talking about the Greek word as it was commonly used when the NT was written? (Asking so I can look this up.)

[joey_the_ox]

Is a shepherd's rod used to beat the sheep?

Is a shepherd's rod the referent of the quoted passage? If you think it is, could you provide an argument for that reading, as opposed to just dismissing Scripture that doesn't work in your nonviolent hermeneutic?

Is asking a question the same as "just dismissing" in your view? If so...why? (Beyond that as I mentioned before I don't take a flat view of scripture...)

No. But a "plain reading" of your question in the context of the preceding comment made it seem that way. I apologize if I read it wrongly.

[joshuabgood]

Yes, but do you think the translation of the Hebrews passage is wrong? If so, could you provide an argument for that (preferably examining the original Greek)?

I don't know Greek...so no. I can't. I do know though that discipline originally was aligned with the word disciple. Not punishment or consequences...like we use it today.

Are you talking about the Greek word as it was commonly used when the NT was written? (Asking so I can look this up.)

No. I am talking about the English word. The word discipline in our usage contains a negative connotation of consequences or punishment. However, the word clearly was initially aligned with disciple. A synonym of discipline really ought to be discipled.

[joey_the_ox]

I don't know Greek...so no. I can't. I do know though that discipline originally was aligned with the word disciple. Not punishment or consequences...like we use it today.

Are you talking about the Greek word as it was commonly used when the NT was written? (Asking so I can look this up.)

No. I am talking about the English word. The word discipline in our usage contains a negative connotation of consequences or punishment. However, the word clearly was initially aligned with disciple. A synonym of discipline really ought to be discipled.

Am I missing something obvious? Isn't what matters the Greek word and its use and how it was understood at the time the passage was written? (And I do apologize if I am just being dense.)

[temporal1]

jbg:
The word discipline in our usage contains a negative connotation of consequences or punishment.

fwiw, i’ve never had the narrow understanding you describe of the words, “discipline,” or “disciple.”

discipline can be a noun, meaning a course of study; it can represent a less harsh judgment, like, being fired or dismissed.
without looking it up, with my modest Latin, i expect it is related to the word, disciple.

i expect there is more, esp going to the Greek or Latin. but, i’ve never corrolated the word with only negative meanings.
there is discipline, there is harsh discipline, there is corporal punishment. i don’t throw all these together.

i like the words, they’re useful.

[Dan Z]

Whew - I'm having to run to keep up with you folks.