LGBT and Christian Persecution

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
temporal1

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by temporal1 »

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:58 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:46 pm
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:35 pm This is an unformed thought that I am clacking out in the few minutes I have available:
The role of Christians in Russia is to be salt and light in a country that was/is itching for invasion and conquest...and for Christians in Ukraine to be salt and light to countrymen that want to fight for preservation and revenge...and for Christians in the U.S. to be salt and light for people that want to follow the pathos of "doing something" and saving the poor Ukrainians and making Putin pay.

This can be done without marching, statements, political activism - it is anything but quietism, passivity and a pretension to neutrality - it should be done as a body of believers.
I don't have any reservations about signing on to something like this, HK although I'm not certain what you mean by "making Putin pay". I have been thinking and praying about the possibility of our church getting involved with Ukrainian refugees.
I think there's a sense among quite a few in the American intelligentsia that it's not enough to end this conflict;
we need to also make Putin an international pariah. I heard this explicitly from Neocon, Eli Lake on the Commentary Magazine podcast last week and we all low-key heard it from President Biden last week as well, before his gaffe was quickly explained away

The desire for Putin/Russia (under any name) to be Public Enemy #1 is not new and not low-key.
It’s blatant, esp noticeable after the collapse of the USSR, it appears “American ‘intelligentsia’” (oxymoron?) isn’t equipped or is unwilling to function without an identified antagonist. “You will be,” whether you are or not. Strongly so in the Left West.

It’s tribal/primitive. Cheap theater that sells. $$$$

While the general population everywhere wants to live+work without military conflict, not so for politicians, esp not for media!
Peace is not their goal.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by HondurasKeiser »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:10 pm
1) The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now - thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is either misunderstood or overridden by the teachings of Christ.
I would rewrite and add a bit like this:
The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now. They are the most effective means of combatting evil in the world and serving a salvific purpose in both the individual and society. This is an important part of the good news. One doesn't need a big defense department to effectively combat evil. Thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is properly understood in that context and is therefore exclusively descriptive with regard to how God can use evil things for his own redemptive purposes (see the crucifixion of Jesus by the state as exhibit A) as opposed to divinely sanctioned as "godly" in some way.
Further - I think Gary's critique of position 2 is valid. There is not a coherent way to assess when a government is acting "right" with regard to use of violence (that is godly use - except this also doesn't make sense because we know God is like Jesus =) versus when it is acting "wrong" (except they always act against the principles of Jesus because their ethic is fundamentally a violent one).

I just can't quite get over that cognitive dissonance hump in position #2 yet --- maybe I will once I am older like =). Further, I don't see a big problem with taking Paul's statement purely descriptive about what is, not what ought to be.

Lastly, Dan, I don't see how if you are position 2 guy you can ethically oppose the death penalty in all cases.
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
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joshuabgood

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by joshuabgood »

JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
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Josh

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by Josh »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
The Bible says the magistrate should be a terror to evildoers.
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barnhart
Posts: 7751
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Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by barnhart »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
My ancestors living in the Cvil war era left record of opposition to enslavement but were wary of the Republican urge to violence as well. It's possible to identify evil without demanding/embracing state cosrsion/violence to stop it. This is where I like Petr C's summary of nonresistance from another thread, beg for it to stop, beg God, beg the perpetrators...
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joshuabgood

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:49 am
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
The Bible says the magistrate should be a terror to evildoers.
I don't see it as a "should" statement as much as a proverbial descriptive statement - "is" in essence.
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joey_the_ox
Posts: 660
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Affiliation: Catholic

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by joey_the_ox »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
In short, yes. In another thread I presented the example of God liberating the Israelites from their tyrannical oppressors by drowning those oppressors in the Red Sea, an example that is treated in the New Testament as a symbol of our own salvation. Here I will provide another example.

First of all, what is coercion? As a start, I will use the following broad definition, which is open to correction or specification if others have objections. A person is coerced when force is applied to them against their will (contra voluntatem tuam). In some manner you are incentivized to do what you would not have otherwise preferred or desired to do. Taxes and fines are examples of coercion. Ecclesial excommunication is an example of coercion. A nurse putting a mentally ill patient into restraints is an example of coercion, as is a police officer putting a drunk, violent person in handcuffs. An abbot assigning one of his monks to complete an undesired physical task is an example of coercion. The repeal of Jim Crow laws was an example of coercion.

Coercion is an ordinary aspect of social life (life in a society, where society is defined in an Aristotelian sense). Often it is quiet and unrecognized - it is so ordinary that we just assume its presence. One of the things that the postmodernists got right was to expose and bring clarity to some examples of the presence of social coercion (the thing they got wrong was to always view it in a negative sense, as “horrible and oppressive”). We are all participants in various social networks or webs of coercion, power, and applied discipline, whether we wish to be or not and whether we are aware of this or not. Of course, not all of this coercion is justly applied, in fact, much of it is not.

Let us consider the above with an example of a specific society in mind - the society of the family. One of the goals here is the development of virtue in the children. There is much to be said about virtue, but a virtuous person intrinsically possesses a kind of freedom or liberty. One of my goals as a father, one of the ends of being a father, is to develop virtue in my children precisely so that they possess the liberty or freedom necessary to participate in society at large, and to partake of the goods that result from this participation. Such a development requires coercion, including physical coercion. I will take this as somewhat self-evident given the context in which I am writing. In fact, those who say that this development does not require coercion often, in their efforts to allow their children “freedom” (a type of negative freedom), end up applying some of the worst kinds of psychological coercion.

What can be said about the justice of a father’s use of coercion? First of all, it is almost self-evident that not all types of coercion are just. I’m sure everyone knows of fathers who are tyrants and abuse their children using the excuse that they have power over them. The end towards which coercion is applied matters. Coercion or power applied for private gain (my own self-interest or comfort) is the definition of tyranny. And it is possible to use coercion to direct children towards ends that are not good (think of examples of parents applying extreme discipline and making great sacrifices to get their children to become good at certain sports, for example). Second, the justice of coercion depends upon the role that one has in a society. For example, if I were to try to discipline my neighbor’s children in the same way that I discipline mine, that would be unjust. That is not my role. Thirdly, coercion must always be applied out of love for the one being coerced. Coercion must always be ordered to the attainment of their true good.

More could be said, but this is lengthy enough. The point is that in a specific society, the society of the family, coercion can be applied in a just manner, towards a virtuous end, and indeed, for a Christian family, towards a salvific end. We can argue about how much this generalizes to other societies, but to that objection I would briefly advise reading some of the postmodernists to get a sense of how coercion just is, whether we like it or not, and observe how attempts to avoid all coercion or all uses of power often end up worse off than before.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by HondurasKeiser »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
It's strange to me that you latch on to that term, 'salvific' when talking about action by the State - when most of us, when we think of that word, only associate it with the action of Christ, redeeming us from our sins and justifying us before God. Let me ask it a different way, is it good or bad that the U.S. no longer has slavery?
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HondurasKeiser

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by HondurasKeiser »

barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:55 am
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am
JBG, if the Supreme Court we’re to not only strike down Roe but also find a fundamental right to life beginning at conception. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? When the U.S. ended slavery, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Is it really so difficult to tell when a government is doing good or evil?
The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
My ancestors living in the Cvil war era left record of opposition to enslavement but were wary of the Republican urge to violence as well. It's possible to identify evil without demanding/embracing state cosrsion/violence to stop it. This is where I like Petr C's summary of nonresistance from another thread, beg for it to stop, beg God, beg the perpetrators...
Barnhart I don't see anyone, except perhaps Mr. Ox, arguing for the use of state coercion/violence to achieve our ends in the world. Your ancestors acted admirably in their confrontations with the evil of chattel slavery and I am sure many of our ancestors have likewise, acted in similar manners at similar moments in history. We are, as disciples of Jesus, called to do the same. Nevertheless, and to be blunt - if it had been left up to our ancestors, the evil of slavery in the U.S. would not have ended when it did. The power and coercion of the state, though not in any way salvific, was nonetheless required in order to bring that system-wide evil to and end. The end of slavery is good - it is an unmitigated good that it came to an end and though it is tragic that it had to be through the means of a bloody war it would have been even more tragic if it had been allowed to continue.
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Josh

Re: LGBT and Christian Persecution

Post by Josh »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:02 am
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:49 am
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am

The underlying question is, are the means of the state, violence and coercion, worthy (or as a whole salvific for society) when used to promote something virtuous? Which gets to the "salvific" question I asked earlier. Do we believe that violence and coercion are useful in providing salvific good to a society? (Where salvific means they improve, make better, make more whole (that is holy), purify, sustain, preserve...etc.)
The Bible says the magistrate should be a terror to evildoers.
I don't see it as a "should" statement as much as a proverbial descriptive statement - "is" in essence.
Does this really seem like it isn’t a should?
Therefore he who resists the authority withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment. For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Do you desire to have no fear of the authority? Do that which is good, and you will have praise from the authority, for he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do that which is evil, be afraid, for he doesn’t bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to him who does evil.
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