Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Neto]

A peek into the Russian Soul - The Brothers Karamazov
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/two ... HOH0czhxZI

It's been many many years since I read The Brothers Karamazov, but I think that this essay (apparently published soon after Crimea was taken over by The Russian Federation) provides an interesting glimpse into "what makes Russia tick".

(It's a fairly long read, so if you are not really interested, then just ignore this post.)

[Ken]

Ken,

Are you seriously taking the position that Russia has committed lots of “war crimes” yet Ukraine hasn’t committed any?

I'm not making any claims one way or the other about the Ukrainian army. If you want to claim Ukraine is committing war crimes that is your argument to make. Asking someone to prove a negative is an absurd and illegitimate debating tactic.

There are millions of cell phones and thousands of reporters all across Ukraine. If you want to claim that Ukraine is committing war crimes in this conflict I'm sure you can find verifiable evidence to support that assertion from sources other than state-run Russian propaganda outlets. Can't you?

And no, I'm not talking about the same old tired Russian claims from 2014 that they used to justify military intervention into the Donbass 8 years ago. I'm talking about evidence of Ukrainian war crimes from this current conflict.

[Josh]

Ken,

Are you seriously taking the position that Russia has committed lots of “war crimes” yet Ukraine hasn’t committed any?

I'm not making any claims one way or the other about the Ukrainian army. If you want to claim Ukraine is committing war crimes that is your argument to make. Asking someone to prove a negative is an absurd and illegitimate debating tactic.

There are millions of cell phones and thousands of reporters all across Ukraine. If you want to claim that Ukraine is committing war crimes in this conflict I'm sure you can find verifiable evidence to support that assertion from sources other than state-run Russian propaganda outlets. Can't you?

And no, I'm not talking about the same old tired Russian claims from 2014 that they used to justify military intervention into the Donbass 8 years ago. I'm talking about evidence of Ukrainian war crimes from this current conflict.

So far your sources are state-run Ukrainian propaganda outlets.

[Ken]

Ken,

Are you seriously taking the position that Russia has committed lots of “war crimes” yet Ukraine hasn’t committed any?

I'm not making any claims one way or the other about the Ukrainian army. If you want to claim Ukraine is committing war crimes that is your argument to make. Asking someone to prove a negative is an absurd and illegitimate debating tactic.

There are millions of cell phones and thousands of reporters all across Ukraine. If you want to claim that Ukraine is committing war crimes in this conflict I'm sure you can find verifiable evidence to support that assertion from sources other than state-run Russian propaganda outlets. Can't you?

And no, I'm not talking about the same old tired Russian claims from 2014 that they used to justify military intervention into the Donbass 8 years ago. I'm talking about evidence of Ukrainian war crimes from this current conflict.

So far your sources are state-run Ukrainian propaganda outlets.

Nonsense. The two links I provided upstream were the BBC and Washington post, both of which have reporters on the ground in Ukraine.

[Szdfan]

i agree, and do not find anyone on this forum that represents the underlined.

This is one of the areas I get irritated with you, when you make pronouncements about what “everybody” thinks or doesn’t think that aren’t true. That’s what I mean by gaslighting.

International Law is a liberal fantasy.
There is no higher court to appeal to. International law amounts to whatever the most power nation says it is.

In reality, "All is fair in love and war"

read carefully: “i agree, and do not find” .. is NOT speaking for others.
i wasn’t remembering the quote you offer. i don’t object to you demonstrating your disagreement. no need to accuse of gaslighting.

i think the quote is Soloist nett. He has a right to his opinion. He has reason for his opinion.

i don’t interpret his words to mean “might makes right.”
perhaps, his is a lament, the world is sinful, avoid confusing earthly governments with God Almighty.
(again, my honest interpretation.) he seems to be present, maybe he/nett will expand on his words. i hope.

(i think) one of my worst failings is being overly direct. i sure try. i’m guilty.
evidently, you “read me” as full of tricks. in my view, that’s sort of a compliment. i’m not clever enough to pull that stuff off.
i learned from a tender age.

Josh has now presented another example of what I’m talking about. I don’t agree with his cynicism.

I also don’t think you’re playing tricks, I’m not sure you’re always aware of how you come across.

[temporal1]

Page 138

i wrote:
.. i understand there are war crimes; a few pages back, Ukraine was accused of torturing+killing handcuffed Russian soldiers.
(“kneecaps” Page 128.)

For those of us who believe all war is criminal, it’s hard to distinguish worldly definitions of, “this killing is ok, this one is not.”
But the world and its governments rely on loads of technical human law. In effort to prevent the worst of it.

The idea of trying to make war more civil is kind of ridiculous.
“War crimes” is a way to punish the losers in wars. (Victorious countries aren’t held accountable for obvious “war crimes”.)

Since the Geneva Convention was put into place, war and bloodshed has become much worse. Huge numbers of people died in the last century. War is worse than ever before.

As usual, both sides in this conflict will shriek about the other side’s war crimes whilst pretending they are innocent and haven’t done any themselves.

i guess your underlined words are response to my underlined words??
i appreciate how anyone might find differences in these words to be splitting hairs!

however, earthly reality is, there are those IN THE BUSINESS OF WARS AND DEATHS who have responsibility to establish rules of conduct, and those responsible for trying them in courts of law. true on every level in military from foot soldiers to high government leaders.
“Types of military court martial”
http://www.usmilitarylawyer.com/types-o ... artial.asp

it’s true in civilian courts, too. judges differentiate between crimes of passion, heinous crimes, unintentional, et al.

the death penalty is highly regulated, some methods are considered inhumane and outlawed - the perpetrators are believed to be guilty of multiple felonies, altho there have been cases of human error in judgments. they have had benefit of legal counsel, usually years of it. sometimes they don’t want this legal process, some get it whether they want it or not. as required by the state.

the only killers i’m aware of who get carte blanche to kill without mercy or exception, to commit speedy execution, whether chemical or physical dismemberment, or all of the above, are for-profit abortion corporations, enabled, promoted, protected and funded by “force of the sword.” none of their victims is guilty of anything, none has a trial, none escapes. the most efficient killing machine in history.

it’s amazing what an incredible wall exists (behind a mother’s belly) whether the mother is a child, teen, or adult, the thin wall of flesh+blood designed to protect+nurture new human life, instead used to HIDE atrocities - - - atrocities that would not be allowed in any war or in civilian life. it boggles the mind.

court martials and war crimes are real. they are feared.
no system is perfect, by any means. but, people ARE in these businesses, it’s part of what happens.

i’m not part of any of it, and not well informed. still, i’m aware. i probably began reading about these cases as a teen.
i don’t deny they exist.

[Sudsy]

May the believers in the Ukraine experience the peace that passes all understanding as is sung in this song -

[temporal1]

I also don’t think you’re playing tricks, I’m not sure you’re always aware of how you come across.

That’s progress.
i always wonder how i come across. usually not at all sure.
sometimes i’m surprised at misunderstandings (because i try to be clear). i’ve learned i’m not. for a few reasons.
strangely, Knight was able to “read me” very well .. he reads much more difficult text than i can deliver!

It took me “forever” to locate this old note from PeterG, which caused me to smile, i thot it was sweet and generous, and unexpected. i didn’t respond to him, i didn’t know how to. but i remembered it as a kindness.

2017

I have my differences with temp, but she acts in good faith.
Responding unproductively to a troll does not make one a troll. Temp is not a troll. .. ..

Personally, i don’t think of any forum members as “not being in good faith,” some are hard to understand (for different reasons, including language+culture) - but, this is mostly puzzle-solving to me, sometimes not with immediate results. Some puzzles take a long time.

No one is mentioning trolls, i just remembered Peter’s words in Wayne’s old thread.

[Szdfan]

Iraqis and Afghan civilians would raise their hands and surrender, even use white flags and then attack the moment US military turned their back.
If this was an actual crime scene perhaps the truth could come out, but it won't so for all practical reasons Russia killed innocent bystanders. As shown in our own society, flat out video recordings of violence get disputed and both sides see what they want to see...

It occurred to me that Russian troops shooting at civilians might have been out of fear of suicide bombings. However, what is coming out of the Kyiv suburb of Bucha goes beyond that. There are reports of dead Ukrainian civilians found with their hands tied behind their backs.

[temporal1]

“Hungary election: Key takeaways as Viktor Orbán wins fourth consecutive term”
https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/03/hun ... -in-office

Hungary has accepted many refugees from Ukraine.

- - - - - - -

Zelensky made a remote appearance at the Grammys/hollywood.
i have not viewed, i don’t view. i would much prefer he distance himself from hollywood.