LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Sudsy]

I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.

"salvific utility for society" presumes the job of the Christian is to save society, yet Jesus seemed to come to save individuals. He abandoned the society he came to to the Romans, who utterly demolished it in 70 A.D.

If we are to follow Jesus, then we will be focused on individuals and such a community of Christians ends up forming a parallel "society", but such a society is only "saved" because it is composed of people who are.

Amen ! Jesus came to His own (the Jews) but they did not receive Him as their Saviour. So, to those people who would receive Him He gave the power to become the Sons of God, not through being a Jew or any good deeds they could do but by the Holy Spirit giving them new life. They were born again by the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, one needs to see/experience a spiritual birth to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I was raised in a Christian home but both my parents were, in my early life, not Christians and my father even mocked professing Christians for their beliefs. But then, my mother first and awhile after that my father were born again. A complete turn around in their lives through an experience that radically changed their lives. And I have seen this occur many times in others through my life. This new life / new beginning sent them on a road of being a Christ follower, a disciple. One can't be a disciple of Christ, as Jesus said, until one is born again / born of the Spirit.

It is concerning to me when I hear what sounds like 'another gospel' that appears to play down the need to be 'born again'. To truly follow Christ we all need a heart transplant that gives us a 'want to' serve Him for giving us such a great gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit to live within.

[silentreader]

Making disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.

Does discipleship come before being born again?

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

It might be helpful to quote the whole statement. "Making disciples" and "teaching them to..." are unconnected? separated by baptism?

[Sudsy]

Making disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.

Does discipleship come before being born again?

Peter was Jesus' disciple for quite some time before he was converted.

Yes, Peter was a disciple of Jesus but before Peter was empowered to serve Jesus, Peter and all the other disciples were required to wait until they received power through the Holy Spirit coming to fill them. I believe this happens today as well that some become believers and have the Holy Spirit in them yet are not filled with the Holy Spirit. They do not live under the control of the Spirit and do not seek His guidance. We are to walk in the Spirit for many reasons, one being to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Filling also is not a one time 'fill er up' happening but we need this on-going filling to be empowered and experience all the benefits of the Spirit led life.

I was raised Pentecostal where this experience of being filled was considered to show up as an experience of speaking in tongues. I don't believe that myself but rather 'being filled' as more of an on-going 'being led' by the Holy Spirit. We have many voices today coming at us through the various modern means and it has to be a determined effort to listen to what the Holy Spirit wants us to do and be.

Well, I guess I've wandered again off the main topic here.

[Josh]

1) The "wicked one" is the Prince of the Kingdoms of this world. So I don't think there a distinction. It was on that basis he offered them to Jesus.

Yet I don't think my local township trustees, or the nearby town mayor, are one and the same with Satan. And Romans 13 doesn't tell us to submit under and obey Satan's rulership.

2) The hope of immortality is not the good news proper, it is a result of, or benefit of the good news, which is in fact Jesus is reigning on earth as also in heaven. I would suggest the work of folks like Matthew Bates and Scott McKnight if you wish to learn more about that perspective and why it is significant.

The hope of the resurrection is indeed what the good news is: "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

4) As David Platt notes, "accepting Jesus" is not really an explicitly biblical term. Jesus actually adjures us to follow him (Matthew 4) and then also disciple others in said followership.

Yes, which is why I think Christianity is best experienced in an Anabaptist model: one becomes born again, wants to follow Jesus, is baptised into a legitimate Christian church & becomes a church member, is filled with the Holy Ghost, and then is discipled in the context of being a church member.

[joshuabgood]

1) The "wicked one" is the Prince of the Kingdoms of this world. So I don't think there a distinction. It was on that basis he offered them to Jesus.

Yet I don't think my local township trustees, or the nearby town mayor, are one and the same with Satan. And Romans 13 doesn't tell us to submit under and obey Satan's rulership.

2) The hope of immortality is not the good news proper, it is a result of, or benefit of the good news, which is in fact Jesus is reigning on earth as also in heaven. I would suggest the work of folks like Matthew Bates and Scott McKnight if you wish to learn more about that perspective and why it is significant.

The hope of the resurrection is indeed what the good news is: "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

4) As David Platt notes, "accepting Jesus" is not really an explicitly biblical term. Jesus actually adjures us to follow him (Matthew 4) and then also disciple others in said followership.

Yes, which is why I think Christianity is best experienced in an Anabaptist model: one becomes born again, wants to follow Jesus, is baptised into a legitimate Christian church & becomes a church member, is filled with the Holy Ghost, and then is discipled in the context of being a church member.

Jesus did teach that we submit to the thief...and even give our cloak also.

We will have to agree to disagree about what the good news is.

[joshuabgood]

Does discipleship come before being born again?

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

It might be helpful to quote the whole statement. "Making disciples" and "teaching them to..." are unconnected? separated by baptism?

Exactly. My point is it is a distinction without a difference. We don't not disciple people until they get baptized. Jesus didn't wait to preach the Sermon on the Mt till everyone was baptized.

[Josh]

It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.

The people he taught were faithful and devout Jews, who already were doing their best to follow God's law. But Jesus' teaching was actually preceded by John the Baptist, who did indeed baptise many people.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't teach/preach to folks who weren't baptized?

No, but eventually, "ye must be born again". Following Jesus' teachings without being born again is worthless. Being baptised is one of Jesus' commandments and thus obedience to Jesus includes (eventually) being baptised. You can consult your own denomination for guidance on "how fast" is necessary.

I believe that people who are not born again do go to hell, so I think this is rather important - and I believe that just doing "good deeds" (including following some of Jesus' teachings) is not enough to escape hellfire.

[Josh]

Jesus did teach that we submit to the thief...and even give our cloak also.

We will have to agree to disagree about what the good news is.

Giving one's goods away to a thief is not the "good news"; if this were the case, there is "good news" all over the planet, basically in every place where people are being robbed of their possessions.

The good news is something beyond some kind of masochistic model of Christianity that elevates experiencing injustice to some kind of noble ascetic act.

[joshuabgood]

Jesus did teach that we submit to the thief...and even give our cloak also.

We will have to agree to disagree about what the good news is.

Giving one's goods away to a thief is not the "good news"; if this were the case, there is "good news" all over the planet, basically in every place where people are being robbed of their possessions.

The good news is something beyond some kind of masochistic model of Christianity that elevates experiencing injustice to some kind of noble ascetic act.

I have already laid out what I think the good news is. In its essence it is that "Jesus is King."

[joshuabgood]

The people he taught were faithful and devout Jews, who already were doing their best to follow God's law. But Jesus' teaching was actually preceded by John the Baptist, who did indeed baptise many people.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't teach/preach to folks who weren't baptized?

No, but eventually, "ye must be born again". Following Jesus' teachings without being born again is worthless. Being baptised is one of Jesus' commandments and thus obedience to Jesus includes (eventually) being baptised. You can consult your own denomination for guidance on "how fast" is necessary.

I believe that people who are not born again do go to hell, so I think this is rather important - and I believe that just doing "good deeds" (including following some of Jesus' teachings) is not enough to escape hellfire.

I am not sure I see a distinction between being a follower of Jesus (teachings and life) and being a follower of Jesus. Being baptized symbolizes the commitment to follow Jesus. That is why the Anabaptists were rebaptized.