I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.
"salvific utility for society" presumes the job of the Christian is to save society, yet Jesus seemed to come to save individuals. He abandoned the society he came to to the Romans, who utterly demolished it in 70 A.D.
If we are to follow Jesus, then we will be focused on individuals and such a community of Christians ends up forming a parallel "society", but such a society is only "saved" because it is composed of people who are.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:10 pmMaking disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.
Does discipleship come before being born again?
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.
I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.
"salvific utility for society" presumes the job of the Christian is to save society, yet Jesus seemed to come to save individuals. He abandoned the society he came to to the Romans, who utterly demolished it in 70 A.D.
If we are to follow Jesus, then we will be focused on individuals and such a community of Christians ends up forming a parallel "society", but such a society is only "saved" because it is composed of people who are.
This is a very individualistic and western way of viewing humanity...and there is some we could explore about that probably. Perhaps the good news is something that far transcends mere personal, eschatalogical salvation. Perhaps individuals "being saved" isn't even the good news. Some would say the good news is founding of the Kingdom of God and the reign of Jesus. Jesus founded his Kingdom and we are looking to grow that Kingdom. The growth of his Kingdom comes at the expense of the power of the Kingdoms of this world.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:37 pmThis is a very individualistic and western way of viewing humanity...and there is some we could explore about that probably. Perhaps the good news is something that far transcends mere personal, eschatalogical salvation. Perhaps individuals "being saved" isn't even the good news. Some would say the good news is founding of the Kingdom of God and the reign of Jesus. Jesus founded his Kingdom and we are looking to grow that Kingdom. The growth of his Kingdom comes at the expense of the power of the Kingdoms of this world.
No, the growth of God's kingdom comes at the expense of the wicked one, the adversary.
The "good news" is that salvation is offered to mankind, and eventually there will be a resurrection with a new heaven and a new earth.
This is a very individualistic and western way of viewing humanity
What are you saying? Do you believe in collective salvation? I find historical events like the Baptism of the Kievan Rus' in 988 a bit absurd: the entire city was baptised and Christian now! (According to some, it still is.)
I believe very much that individual people need to be born again. "Ye must be born again." Every one of us born a sinner and must eventually be born again and accept Christ. After accepting Christ, we seek baptism and church membership and then ordinances such as communion, Christian marriage, and other clearly taught NT principles so that we can follow Christ even better.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:34 pm
It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.
The people he taught were faithful and devout Jews, who already were doing their best to follow God's law. But Jesus' teaching was actually preceded by John the Baptist, who did indeed baptise many people.
I like your re-write, and with you, I am thoroughly committed to the teachings and example of Jesus as the higher wisdom of God - but I have a question: Doesn't the phrase in Rom 13 "ordained of God," and the idea that, at least at times, the government is the "minister of God to thee for good," imply more purposeful direction on God's part than simply a description of how God can redeem evil for good? I'd love to go where you do here, it would probably solve some internal dissonance, but my hermeneutic guides me to a face-value reading of this passage. In my understanding, if God "ordains" someone as His "minister" for some purpose - He is very deliberately commissioning that person to carry out that particular task...nicht?
I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.
I can respect the "all in" approach here...if one has to choose how to relate to state-sanctioned coercion, I'd much rather see it grounded on the radical,
expansive, and transcendent teachings of Christ's 'upside-down Kingdom,' than based on a few paragraphs about submission to authority from the Apostle Paul. However, I'm not convinced one has to choose - Christ and Paul (inspired by the Spirit of Christ) can both be correct if one understands the policing (I would not use the term 'salvific') function of Government as provisional, and separate from the ever-advancing love-driven Kingdom of God.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:37 pmThis is a very individualistic and western way of viewing humanity...and there is some we could explore about that probably. Perhaps the good news is something that far transcends mere personal, eschatalogical salvation. Perhaps individuals "being saved" isn't even the good news. Some would say the good news is founding of the Kingdom of God and the reign of Jesus. Jesus founded his Kingdom and we are looking to grow that Kingdom. The growth of his Kingdom comes at the expense of the power of the Kingdoms of this world.
No, the growth of God's kingdom comes at the expense of the wicked one, the adversary.
The "good news" is that salvation is offered to mankind, and eventually there will be a resurrection with a new heaven and a new earth.
This is a very individualistic and western way of viewing humanity
What are you saying? Do you believe in collective salvation? I find historical events like the Baptism of the Kievan Rus' in 988 a bit absurd: the entire city was baptised and Christian now! (According to some, it still is.)
I believe very much that individual people need to be born again. "Ye must be born again." Every one of us born a sinner and must eventually be born again and accept Christ. After accepting Christ, we seek baptism and church membership and then ordinances such as communion, Christian marriage, and other clearly taught NT principles so that we can follow Christ even better.
1) The "wicked one" is the Prince of the Kingdoms of this world. So I don't think there a distinction. It was on that basis he offered them to Jesus.
2) The hope of immortality is not the good news proper, it is a result of, or benefit of the good news, which is in fact Jesus is reigning on earth as also in heaven. I would suggest the work of folks like Matthew Bates and Scott McKnight if you wish to learn more about that perspective and why it is significant.
3) I am saying that the good news also has a social impact and society also affects individuals. The relation between society and individuals is in the least a two way street. Not a one street flowing from individuals to society as western thinkers have theorized. The voice of the prophets to Israel as a whole and Jesus proclamations on whole towns and people groups also bear witness.
4) As David Platt notes, "accepting Jesus" is not really an explicitly biblical term. Jesus actually adjures us to follow him (Matthew 4) and then also disciple others in said followership.
I like your re-write, and with you, I am thoroughly committed to the teachings and example of Jesus as the higher wisdom of God - but I have a question: Doesn't the phrase in Rom 13 "ordained of God," and the idea that, at least at times, the government is the "minister of God to thee for good," imply more purposeful direction on God's part than simply a description of how God can redeem evil for good? I'd love to go where you do here, it would probably solve some internal dissonance, but my hermeneutic guides me to a face-value reading of this passage. In my understanding, if God "ordains" someone as His "minister" for some purpose - He is very deliberately commissioning that person to carry out that particular task...nicht?
I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.
I can respect the "all in" approach here...if one has to choose how to relate to state-sanctioned coercion, I'd much rather see it grounded on the radical,
expansive, and transcendent teachings of Christ's 'upside-down Kingdom,' than based on a few paragraphs about submission to authority from the Apostle Paul. However, I'm not convinced one has to choose - Christ and Paul (inspired by the Spirit of Christ) can both be correct if one understands the policing (I would not use the term 'salvific') function of Government as provisional, and separate from the ever-advancing love-driven Kingdom of God.
I understand this at one level and yet...in your view is it in fact possible that God has ordained Putin to wield the sword against Ukraine because it is necessary and just - since God sees things that you don't see? And if so...then I would think you would be in Gary's place...not speaking up one way or the other. (One might of course also use American examples with the Rev or Civil Wars.)
Last edited by joshuabgood on Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:34 pm
It seems like it in this list. When Jesus taught and discipled the crowds, it doesn't seem like he waited for them to be baptized prior to preaching the Sermon on the Mount.
The people he taught were faithful and devout Jews, who already were doing their best to follow God's law. But Jesus' teaching was actually preceded by John the Baptist, who did indeed baptise many people.
Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't teach/preach to folks who weren't baptized?
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:10 pmMaking disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.
Does discipleship come before being born again?
Peter was Jesus' disciple for quite some time before he was converted.