LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Dan Z]

1) The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now - thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is either misunderstood or overridden by the teachings of Christ.

I would rewrite and add a bit like this:

The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now. They are the most effective means of combatting evil in the world and serving a salvific purpose in both the individual and society. This is an important part of the good news. One doesn't need a big defense department to effectively combat evil. Thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is properly understood in that context and is therefore exclusively descriptive with regard to how God can use evil things for his own redemptive purposes (see the crucifixion of Jesus by the state as exhibit A) as opposed to divinely sanctioned as "godly" in some way.

I like your re-write, and with you, I am thoroughly committed to the teachings and example of Jesus as the higher wisdom of God - but I have a question: Doesn't the phrase in Rom 13 "ordained of God," and the idea that, at least at times, the government is the "minister of God to thee for good," imply more purposeful direction on God's part than simply a description of how God can redeem evil for good? I'd love to go where you do here, it would probably solve some internal dissonance, but my hermeneutic guides me to a face-value reading of this passage. In my understanding, if God "ordains" someone as His "minister" for some purpose - He is very deliberately commissioning that person to carry out that particular task...nicht?

[Josh]

The Bible makes it clear sin exists and no one can overcome it without Christ’s power. “Ye must be born again.” Attempting to make unsaved people live like Christians is a wholly unsuccessful endeavour.

What do you mean by "make"?

You describe some kind of Christian-esque lifestyle we should teach people to live, but somehow apart from being born again, baptised, and filled with the Holy Ghost first:

It is not clear to me that in fact discipleship and the things you mentioned are really two different things. I think they may be the same thing. Jesus said after all go and make disciples. So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

When one person kills another, the person who killed the other is profoundly damaged. Men are not made to do violence to each other. It damages them, their relationships, their self worth, etc etc etc. It doesn't matter if they are executing the worst criminal - it damages them because we aren't made for that. So I say we advocate for the way of Jesus to soldiers, presidents, prime ministers. His ways work. As we make disciples we baptize et al. But it isn't one before the other or one or the other. It is both immediately perhaps.

Specifically:

So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

Jesus didn't say "Go ye into all the nations and teach them to be pacifists." He said,

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism must come first. Before people can become effective at living your vision of pacifism, they need to be born again, baptised, and become church members first. (If you don't believe in formal church membership you can strike that one out.)

[Sudsy]

Acts 2:38 -

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Dan Z]

The Bible makes it clear sin exists and no one can overcome it without Christ’s power. “Ye must be born again.” Attempting to make unsaved people live like Christians is a wholly unsuccessful endeavour.

What do you mean by "make"?

You describe some kind of Christian-esque lifestyle we should teach people to live, but somehow apart from being born again, baptised, and filled with the Holy Ghost first:

It is not clear to me that in fact discipleship and the things you mentioned are really two different things. I think they may be the same thing. Jesus said after all go and make disciples. So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

When one person kills another, the person who killed the other is profoundly damaged. Men are not made to do violence to each other. It damages them, their relationships, their self worth, etc etc etc. It doesn't matter if they are executing the worst criminal - it damages them because we aren't made for that. So I say we advocate for the way of Jesus to soldiers, presidents, prime ministers. His ways work. As we make disciples we baptize et al. But it isn't one before the other or one or the other. It is both immediately perhaps.

Specifically:

So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

Jesus didn't say "Go ye into all the nations and teach them to be pacifists." He said,

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism must come first. Before people can become effective at living your vision of pacifism, they need to be born again, baptised, and become church members first. (If you don't believe in formal church membership you can strike that one out.)

Extending your logic - Why do you so vociferously denounce abortion among the pagans then? Jesus didn't teach "go ye into all the nations and teach them not to kill infants."

[Josh]

Extending your logic - Why do you so vociferously denounce abortion among the pagans then? Jesus didn't teach "go ye into all the nations and teach them not to kill infants."

Murder is obviously wrong, and has been taught as wrong since the days of Cain and Abel. It is taught in the Old Testament as wrong.

Christian pacifism, on the other hand, is not exactly a culturally universal value nor one that God even expected of his own people in the Old Testament. How can I expect someone to lay down their own life without them first having hope and belief in a promise of eternal life?

But I can easily expect someone not to go and murder a defenceless baby.

[joshuabgood]

Acts 2:38 -

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus:

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Making disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.
.

[joshuabgood]

The Bible makes it clear sin exists and no one can overcome it without Christ’s power. “Ye must be born again.” Attempting to make unsaved people live like Christians is a wholly unsuccessful endeavour.

What do you mean by "make"?

You describe some kind of Christian-esque lifestyle we should teach people to live, but somehow apart from being born again, baptised, and filled with the Holy Ghost first:

It is not clear to me that in fact discipleship and the things you mentioned are really two different things. I think they may be the same thing. Jesus said after all go and make disciples. So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

When one person kills another, the person who killed the other is profoundly damaged. Men are not made to do violence to each other. It damages them, their relationships, their self worth, etc etc etc. It doesn't matter if they are executing the worst criminal - it damages them because we aren't made for that. So I say we advocate for the way of Jesus to soldiers, presidents, prime ministers. His ways work. As we make disciples we baptize et al. But it isn't one before the other or one or the other. It is both immediately perhaps.

Specifically:

So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

Jesus didn't say "Go ye into all the nations and teach them to be pacifists." He said,

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism must come first. Before people can become effective at living your vision of pacifism, they need to be born again, baptised, and become church members first. (If you don't believe in formal church membership you can strike that one out.)

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Also see my comments to Sudsy which also apply to these thoughts. But in short it isn't one before another at the least. It is both and...discipleship leads to baptism not the other way around, else the infant baptizers would be right.

[silentreader]

What do you mean by "make"?

You describe some kind of Christian-esque lifestyle we should teach people to live, but somehow apart from being born again, baptised, and filled with the Holy Ghost first:

It is not clear to me that in fact discipleship and the things you mentioned are really two different things. I think they may be the same thing. Jesus said after all go and make disciples. So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

When one person kills another, the person who killed the other is profoundly damaged. Men are not made to do violence to each other. It damages them, their relationships, their self worth, etc etc etc. It doesn't matter if they are executing the worst criminal - it damages them because we aren't made for that. So I say we advocate for the way of Jesus to soldiers, presidents, prime ministers. His ways work. As we make disciples we baptize et al. But it isn't one before the other or one or the other. It is both immediately perhaps.

Specifically:

So why wouldn't we do our best to disciple everybody and every institution in the way of Jesus which is better, more effective at combatting evil, brings a more abundant life, is a lighter yoke etc...right now?

Jesus didn't say "Go ye into all the nations and teach them to be pacifists." He said,

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism must come first. Before people can become effective at living your vision of pacifism, they need to be born again, baptised, and become church members first. (If you don't believe in formal church membership you can strike that one out.)

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Also see my comments to Sudsy which also apply to these thoughts. But in short it isn't one before another at the least. It is both and...discipleship leads to baptism not the other way around, else the infant baptizers would be right.

But discipleship is not necessarily completed with baptism?

[joshuabgood]

1) The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now - thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is either misunderstood or overridden by the teachings of Christ.

I would rewrite and add a bit like this:

The teachings of Jesus about non-resistance and enemy-love are normative and universally true as God's will for the World even now. They are the most effective means of combatting evil in the world and serving a salvific purpose in both the individual and society. This is an important part of the good news. One doesn't need a big defense department to effectively combat evil. Thus Paul's teaching about the God-ordained Governmental use of the sword is properly understood in that context and is therefore exclusively descriptive with regard to how God can use evil things for his own redemptive purposes (see the crucifixion of Jesus by the state as exhibit A) as opposed to divinely sanctioned as "godly" in some way.

I like your re-write, and with you, I am thoroughly committed to the teachings and example of Jesus as the higher wisdom of God - but I have a question: Doesn't the phrase in Rom 13 "ordained of God," and the idea that, at least at times, the government is the "minister of God to thee for good," imply more purposeful direction on God's part than simply a description of how God can redeem evil for good? I'd love to go where you do here, it would probably solve some internal dissonance, but my hermeneutic guides me to a face-value reading of this passage. In my understanding, if God "ordains" someone as His "minister" for some purpose - He is very deliberately commissioning that person to carry out that particular task...nicht?

I understand what you are saying and I think the most simple reading and application of Romans 13 does lead one pretty inexorably to some sort of "divine right" with regard to the state and that such use of violence is both godly, right, and just - and that there doesn't, in that passage, seem to be any proscription against Christian participation. It is in fact, I think, based solely on that passage, a logical inference that we actually want god-fearing Christians who embrace a "judeo-Christian" worldview in positions of power. So in that sense the Catholic/Protestant positions makes sense to me. There is only small problem with that position, it doesn't seem to me to square with the life and witness of Jesus, how he lived, as the perfect revelation of God, etc.

At this point though, I think I'd rather harmonize the words of Paul, as purely descriptive, with the good news of Jesus rather than the other way around, or holding two contradictory philosophies 1) that suffering love is the most effective force against violence and has the most utility as a salvific lever for humanity and also 2) that violence is needed as an effective leader against violence and is (at least at key times) the most effective salvific lever for humanity.

I feel like it takes mental gymnastics and cognitive flexibility either way and I think I'd rather go all in that actually suffering love is the most powerful force to combat evil and is the most effective lever of salvific utility for society. It is on that premise I think that we look to disciple to that end with regard to state violence etc.

[Josh]

Making disciples actually comes first in this list. And certainly doesn't seem distinct in any way...I don't think discipleship needs to wait on baptism or I guess I wouldn't disciple my own kids in the way of Jesus.

Does discipleship come before being born again?