LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Josh]

I can't do much to stop abortion, but I can do things to support adoption and to make it easier for single mothers in America. I can't do much to stop war, but I can help refugees. I can't do much to stop gay marriage, either, I haven't figured out much of anything I can do in that area.

I'm not sure how "making it easier for single mothers" is helpful; we have more abortion after the Great Society was implemented than before it. Fornication is also a rather serious sin. Most single mothers are single mothers by choice.

[Josh]

When we say we will not kill, that has a prophetic component. But if we justify those who invade their neighbors, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we justify those who fight back an invasion, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we say we will care for refugees, that has a prophetic component. But if we then lobby to exclude refugees and speak very negatively about them, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Being a Christian doesn't mean leaving my door open for every drifter who decides he needs to move in to improve his economic condition. Not being a progressive-liberal Democrat is not being "inconsistent with our calling" as Christians, although you keep making the case that it is.

When we adopt unwanted babies, that has a prophetic component. But if we constantly bad-mouth the poor, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Pretty much every Mennonite church I am aware of has a few infertile couples who are trying to adopt unwanted babies. They generally have to spend huge sums of money ($40k+) and go on waiting lists. In essence, there are zero "unwanted babies" out there. A typical adoption involves finding a pregnant mother through an agency, spending a lot of money, and then hoping she doesn't decide she wants it after it's born (which seems a bit macabre). One couple I know went through two false starts where the mothers decided not to put their babies out to adoption after all before they adopted a third.

The rhetoric that there is abortion because not enough Christians are adopting is flatly untrue.

[GaryK]

Now, I will admit that he could state the same thing about two-kingdom adherents who do not enter the political arena of this war by refusing to either denounce or support either side, but I believe it would be much easier to defend a two-kingdom stance by refusing to publicly take a side than it would be to publicly state which side one is against and then not support the use of military aid to Ukraine.

Let's apply this to abortion, war, and LGBT. In all three cases, I think it is appropriate to address the moral questions. In all three cases, I think it is important to avoid being loyal to some political "side". But I also think we should speak clearly about moral issues. In fact, I think it's harder to defend a two-kingdom stance that cannot find anything wrong with blatant wrongdoing. Speaking plainly about moral issues is not the same thing as "taking sides". Of course, it can seem that way, because the blatantly partisan also talk as though they were mostly concerned about morality, but I think we need to develop a better moral compass, not abandon morality.

I am against abortion. I do not believe gay marriage is biblical. I am against military invasions and pummeling civilian populations. In all three cases, Caesar may disagree with me, but I think these are values of my kingdom.

I can't do much to stop abortion, but I can do things to support adoption and to make it easier for single mothers in America. I can't do much to stop war, but I can help refugees. I can't do much to stop gay marriage, either, I haven't figured out much of anything I can do in that area.

Both abortion and gay marriage are individual matters that the Church has the ability to address with individuals. How does the Church go about changing militaries and political systems into the way of Jesus? I don't think God intends for the Church to attempt to change systems He has set up for His purposes.

[GaryK]

What does it look like for the Church to call political systems to the way of Jesus? The Church's role is to call all sinful individuals to the way of Jesus, but I see no indication that Jesus or the NT KOG tries to do this to political systems.

But I do think the NT Church has a prophetic role.

When we say we will not kill, that has a prophetic component. But if we justify those who invade their neighbors, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we say we will care for refugees, that has a prophetic component. But if we then lobby to exclude refugees and speak very negatively about them, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we adopt unwanted babies, that has a prophetic component. But if we constantly bad-mouth the poor, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Have you seen anywhere that I have justified what Russia is doing or spoken against taking care of refugees or bad-mouthed the poor?

[ohio jones]

When we adopt unwanted babies, that has a prophetic component. But if we constantly bad-mouth the poor, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Pretty much every Mennonite church I am aware of has a few infertile couples who are trying to adopt unwanted babies. They generally have to spend huge sums of money ($40k+) and go on waiting lists. In essence, there are zero "unwanted babies" out there.

There are lots of unwanted children; they go into the foster care system, where there is ample opportunity for Mennonites and others to be involved. Sometimes this can result in adoption, though it's usually a more complicated route.

[Josh]

When we adopt unwanted babies, that has a prophetic component. But if we constantly bad-mouth the poor, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Pretty much every Mennonite church I am aware of has a few infertile couples who are trying to adopt unwanted babies. They generally have to spend huge sums of money ($40k+) and go on waiting lists. In essence, there are zero "unwanted babies" out there.

There are lots of unwanted children; they go into the foster care system, where there is ample opportunity for Mennonites and others to be involved. Sometimes this can result in adoption, though it's usually a more complicated route.

Bootstrap specifically said “unwanted babies”. Age 2 and up is a very different story.

[ohio jones]

Pretty much every Mennonite church I am aware of has a few infertile couples who are trying to adopt unwanted babies. They generally have to spend huge sums of money ($40k+) and go on waiting lists. In essence, there are zero "unwanted babies" out there.

There are lots of unwanted children; they go into the foster care system, where there is ample opportunity for Mennonites and others to be involved. Sometimes this can result in adoption, though it's usually a more complicated route.

Bootstrap specifically said “unwanted babies”. Age 2 and up is a very different story.

Babies, including newborns, go into foster care too.

[Bootstrap]

Not being a progressive-liberal Democrat is not being "inconsistent with our calling" as Christians, although you keep making the case that it is.

Actually, no. I don't. In fact, I repeat, over and over again, that these labels don't help us think clearly about Christian morality, and that we have to do the hard work of thinking about who Jesus was, what he said and did, who we are as members of the Kingdom of God, and how that relates to That Other Kingdom.

It's easier to do that if you don't keep forcing every moral issue into partisan political labels and partisan sides. Those labels and those sides aren't really part of a Christian world view. If we always use their language and their framing, we wind up using their talking points instead of wrestling with what our own role is.

There's no extra credit for hating Democrats more loudly than someone else does or for hating Republicans more loudly than someone else does. That's not what the Kingdom of God is about. And it's mind-numbing, it hijacks one conversation after another, it makes it a LOT harder to have the kind of gentle attention we need to think clearly and discern.

But I think we can be clear about wrongdoing without doing that. And I think we can seek our own role as the Kingdom of God without doing that.

[Bootstrap]

What does it look like for the Church to call political systems to the way of Jesus? The Church's role is to call all sinful individuals to the way of Jesus, but I see no indication that Jesus or the NT KOG tries to do this to political systems.

But I do think the NT Church has a prophetic role.

When we say we will not kill, that has a prophetic component. But if we justify those who invade their neighbors, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we say we will care for refugees, that has a prophetic component. But if we then lobby to exclude refugees and speak very negatively about them, that is inconsistent with our calling.

When we adopt unwanted babies, that has a prophetic component. But if we constantly bad-mouth the poor, that is inconsistent with our calling.

Have you seen anywhere that I have justified what Russia is doing or spoken against taking care of refugees or bad-mouthed the poor?

No, I was responding directly to your quote above. I do think that Christians should be able to speak truth - often by our caring. And I think Christians have a responsibility to be salt and light, to be something better.

[Josh]

There are lots of unwanted children; they go into the foster care system, where there is ample opportunity for Mennonites and others to be involved. Sometimes this can result in adoption, though it's usually a more complicated route.

Bootstrap specifically said “unwanted babies”. Age 2 and up is a very different story.

Babies, including newborns, go into foster care too.

Bootstrap said “adopt unwanted babies”.

My original point stands: there are far more willing adoptive parents than there are unwanted babies up to for adoption. So the talking point that Christians need to be more willing to adopt unwanted babies is farcical.