Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[temporal1]

I think this is an extreme important subject, but it would need some more "structure".

For "structuring" it, let's separate the "ethical" question (how are we to treat each other?)
from the "politico-legal" questions (how does the state (intentionally) treat his citizens, how does he protect his citizens from each other).

As for the legal question, let us concede that every equality law has a silently implied caveat.
For instance the 14th amendment means in reality that all men are equally protected "if not ..".
But it's just the "if not what" which tells and which the Courts have to decide.

And let's accept that education is a particular matter, because the teacher
(a) teaches children in order to become well-adjusted grown-ups and therefore
(b) needs a mixture of leniency (as friend of the children) and strictness (as representant of the "outer world").

For instance, if we pretend that every enterprise can and may regulate the speech of its workers,
then a teacher ought to adjust his pupils to situations where their speech is heavily regulated.

Good points/questions.
i hope to return. and, looking forward to (esp CM or conservative-thinking responses) - which are more difficult to find.

[Ken]

For instance, if we pretend that every enterprise can and may regulate the speech of its workers, then a teacher ought to adjust his pupils to situations where their speech is heavily regulated.

Which, in fact, happens constantly in every classroom in the country as well as probably every classroom in every other country around the world.

[Josh]

I don't necessarily believe that there OUGHT to be public schools.

What I do believe to be true is that in the United States, PUBLIC education is not compulsory for either students or teachers. And that any individuals or groups are perfectly free to form their own schools around whatever belief system that they happen to have.

Do you think the state should dictate educational standards in schools, such as requiring LGBT "safe spaces" as as happened in Canada in their regulations of private schools? (In theory, Mennonite schools are subject to this, although this has not been tested in real life yet; in Quebec, the state has simply shut down private Mennonite and orthodox Jewish schools for not submitting sufficiently to state regulation).

[Josh]

One major consideration is - the unassimilated do NOT want taxpayer funds! -
Because, tax dollars equates with “force of the sword.” If private schools/home schools are forced to align with questionable/unwanted gov policies - what’s the point?! Beware acceptance of gov funding. It’s NOT without strings.

Not true. At least not for all. There are politically powerful voucher movements in many states that are backed by evangelical Christian organizations who seek to establish publicly funded voucher programs that would amount to public funding for private schools. And various other proposals for tax subsidies and such that would essentially amount to the same thing. Private schools are also generally tax exempt which in itself amounts to a public subsidy.

It's an odd view that not taking taxes from people is a "subsidy", particularly when compared to public schools who also don't pay any taxes, and also get to enjoy feasting the public trough, which most private schools don't do.

Yes, that is why we have school board elections, local school bond elections, and elections for statewide offices related to education such as state commissioners of education, state boards of education, and so forth depending on the particular state. Every citizen does have a say in the management of the public schools.

This is akin to saying that every Russian has a say in how the war with Ukraine is conducted, since technically they can all vote.

[Ken]

It's an odd view that not taking taxes from people is a "subsidy", particularly when compared to public schools who also don't pay any taxes, and also get to enjoy feasting the public trough, which most private schools don't do.

Nonsense.

If you have a small rural Mennonite school somewhere in your town or in a rural area, that school receives police protection, fire protection, has roads maintained, water service, electrical service, sewage service and a variety of other public services that every neighboring property pays for through property taxes but that your school is exempt from paying. Yes you probably still pay your water and electric bill, but those services are still often heavily subsidized in that rate payers are not paying the full cost of building out the wires and pipes and so forth.

So yes, every school and every church that is tax exempt is relying on the taxes of its neighbors to provide all of those services.

[RZehr]

So yes, every school and every church that is tax exempt is relying on the taxes of its neighbors to provide all of those services.

The existence of our newly built school created no need for more public infrastructure. Nor was there a bond passed to raise funds for a new building, raising everyone in the counties property tax. This is in stark comparison to every new public school that is built in this state. Show me any new school that is built without additional taxes. And show me any new school that is build without massive civil infrastructure costs, but one that simply uses existing infrastructure. We only used roads, water, sewer, electric lines, that were either already built, or that we paid for.

If we would have left the school unbuilt, the property taxes on that land would have been under $250 per year. So we should feel bad that the county is missing out on $250 per year in taxes? The county did not foot the bill to build our school. No ones property taxes were increased to raise funds - unlike the public schools. Meanwhile, we buy our water from the rural water supply, (which they make money from) besides the incremental taxes that we pay on electricity, trash, and gas. And have 5 teachers on payroll who are paying taxes.
Additionally, we are relieving the local school district of the cost that they would have to pay to educate our children. And we should feel badly about the county missing out on a measly $250 per year in property taxes? Public schools don't pay property taxes on their facilities either.

I just looked at my property tax bill for my house. I personally paid $1,997.73 that went to our local public school district. And I paid another $214.40 for our community college - not sure what that is for. And I paid $419.71 for emergency services. And $128.14 for the library and $409.55 for the county jail. And another $1,050.73 as a general levy. All told, the property tax bill was $4,220.26 So we are paying just as much for these things as our neighbors.

I suspect that our whole church is contributing to the financial position of this county and school district, far more than the $250 per year tax break we are taking.

As a side note, I helped build the church I was at prior to this one. That city had the same concern that you seem to have, and figured that since our building would remove what was a vacant 5 acre sheep pasture from their tax rolls, they'd just collect the money up front. So they sold us a building permit for over $110,000.00.

[temporal1]

2020 Property taxes:
230.15 County gov
30.10 Forest preserve
149.39 Local community college
1,285.42 Local public schools K-12
35.85 Fire protection
77.53 Township
217.53 Road+Bridge
6.69 Something else?

$2032.66 Total (The lion’s share to gov schools.)

This is AFTER 3 exemptions: homestead, age, freeze on increases due to income.
My taxes could easily be double or more this amount. If i rented my home, if i were younger, if i had more income.

Of course there are MANY additional taxes paid, on just about everything.
Robert once posted a lengthy list of taxes that add-up, and pointed out, required licenses are another form of taxing.

[Josh]

It's an odd view that not taking taxes from people is a "subsidy", particularly when compared to public schools who also don't pay any taxes, and also get to enjoy feasting the public trough, which most private schools don't do.

Nonsense.

If you have a small rural Mennonite school somewhere in your town or in a rural area, that school receives police protection, fire protection, has roads maintained, water service, electrical service, sewage service and a variety of other public services that every neighboring property pays for through property taxes but that your school is exempt from paying. Yes you probably still pay your water and electric bill, but those services are still often heavily subsidized in that rate payers are not paying the full cost of building out the wires and pipes and so forth.

So yes, every school and every church that is tax exempt is relying on the taxes of its neighbors to provide all of those services.

Let's go over your line items.

#1. Police protection - we don't have "police protection" here other than the county sheriff, who generally takes a few days to arrive for lower priority calls.

#2 - Fire protection - fire protection comes from a volunteer fire department. In some areas, almost all of the volunteer firefighters are Mennonites. I went to a firehouse fund raiser last week and nearly everybody there was Mennonite, both fundraisers and diners.

#3 - Water service & sewage service - we have to dig our own wells and septic tanks and maintain themselves.

#4 - Electrical service - we pay the power company, it is not cheap to get hooked up and then there is a power bill due every month.

Property taxes don't pay for these things, other than county sheriff by a very small degree. County sheriffs in rural counties here are mostly funded by state and federal grants because the state wants to see well-resourced sheriff's offices.

Ken, I really have to question your knowledge of American civics if you think electrical service is provided by property taxes. It's not. Water & sewer are also something ratepayers pay - the village here recently raised rates significantly to pay for improvements. Water users are paying those costs, not property taxes which have remained stable and are hard to raise.

[temporal1]

For instance, if we pretend that every enterprise can and may regulate the speech of its workers, then a teacher ought to adjust his pupils to situations where their speech is heavily regulated.

Which, in fact, happens constantly in every classroom in the country as well as probably every classroom in every other country around the world.

hmm. room for improvement?
lots+lots of h.s. and college graduates require basic training by their employers, for skills parents, churches, schools failed to teach; incarcerations/problems with police indicate basic social skills are not being adequately taught.

i attribute a lot of this to 1 parent homes, fatherless homes.
teens+young people are not prepared to deal with real life. being a whining victim is not preparation for the workplace,
not for being married, raising a family, either. it’s pretty useless in practical terms.

Yes, that is why we have school board elections, local school bond elections, and elections for statewide offices related to education such as state commissioners of education, state boards of education, and so forth depending on the particular state.
Every citizen does have a say in the management of the public schools.

without attempting to find quotes, you have consistently complained/criticized parents for having the nerve to show up at school board meetings, for being “behind the times,” etc., which i believe is typical for union gov school teachers.
recently, parents have been labeled “domestic terrorists.” how welcoming!

conversely, my experience with private schools is, they go out of their way to encourage, if not REQUIRE parent involvement in all aspects of school. i’m sure it’s more work to do this! but the end result pays off. better overall education.

public schools are NOT better off without these students and their parents - and teachers!
it’s a big overall loss. because taxes support gov schools NO MATTER OUTCOME, the loss of these valuable persons is overlooked.
“who cares?” “the money is there.”

i have no answers for this. this kind of thing does not happen in the private sector.
in the private sector, if you fail, you aren’t rewarded, you go out of business.

[Josh]

Yes, that is why we have school board elections, local school bond elections, and elections for statewide offices related to education such as state commissioners of education, state boards of education, and so forth depending on the particular state.
Every citizen does have a say in the management of the public schools.

The Biden administration has stated that parents who go to school board meetings are potential terrorists. We can see how much the current government administration wants parents involved in schools.