LGBT and Christian Persecution

[HondurasKeiser]

What exactly are judeo-Christian principles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

Why does the West, broadly speaking, believe strongly in individual rights? I know, I know "White Supremacy"...but other than that?

[temporal1]

i don’t use the term, “Judeo-Christian,” but i’m not opposed to it. i’ve never discussed it with my Jewish friends, not even with a pastor i so admired, who was a joyous converted Jew. if the opp arises, i’d like to.

one of the sweetest memories i have with my young grdaughter was, driving by a local synagogue, pointing out to her that Jesus was born into a Jewish family (she was shocked!) - so, i went on to describe to her, there were no named Christians when Jesus lived on earth, the word, “Christian” was unknown for a long while after He returned to heaven.

it was so touching to see her little (Catholic-educated) brain twist+stretch.
life can be so beautiful.

i am respectful of Jews, sincerely so, as i believe Jesus was. but Jesus came - for all. no matter what.

[Ken]

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

Why does the West, broadly speaking, believe strongly in individual rights? I know, I know "White Supremacy"...but other than that?

Where in the 10 Commandments or Old Testament do you find the notion of "individual rights" expressed or promoted?

That is more of a heritage of the Greeks and Romans than the Abrahamic religions.

[HondurasKeiser]

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

Why does the West, broadly speaking, believe strongly in individual rights? I know, I know "White Supremacy"...but other than that?

Where in the 10 Commandments or Old Testament do you find the notion of "individual rights" expressed or promoted?

That is more of a heritage of the Greeks and Romans than the Abrahamic religions.

I didn't state that individual rights flow out of Mosaic Law. I asked where those rights come from broadly speaking.

[Ken]

Why does the West, broadly speaking, believe strongly in individual rights? I know, I know "White Supremacy"...but other than that?

Where in the 10 Commandments or Old Testament do you find the notion of "individual rights" expressed or promoted?

That is more of a heritage of the Greeks and Romans than the Abrahamic religions.

I didn't state that individual rights flow out of Mosaic Law. I asked where those rights come from broadly speaking.

Gotcha. I agree that they are a western tradition. But they are more of a heritage of Greek and Roman philosophy than Judaism or Christianity.

[barnhart]

Where in the 10 Commandments or Old Testament do you find the notion of "individual rights" expressed or promoted?

That is more of a heritage of the Greeks and Romans than the Abrahamic religions.

I didn't state that individual rights flow out of Mosaic Law. I asked where those rights come from broadly speaking.

Gotcha. I agree that they are a western tradition. But they are more of a heritage of Greek and Roman philosophy than Judaism or Christianity.

I disagree Ken. I think individual rights arise in the west only after it's saturation with christians. Judaism theoretically has believed in the value of human life because of God's image, but it took christians to carry those values into the broader culture. Emporer Julian bemoaned the high level of care for the downtrodden christians displayed so much that he singled it out as the source of their strength. "They care not only for their own poor, but ours as well..."

[Bootstrap]

By the way. I find this list rather odd. Why is Nigeria on the list?

Boko Haram.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian- ... t/nigeria/

[Bootstrap]

It can be wearisome living in a pluralistic society, but historically this not new for the church. Before we look enviously toward authoritarianism to salve the discomfort, we need to think clearly about how that might work out.

When I first learned Two Kingdom theology in a Mennonite setting, we were told about the dangers of "sacralism":

Sacralism is the confluence of church and state wherein one is called upon to change the other. It also denotes a perspective that views church and state as tied together instead of separate entities so that people within a geographical and political region are considered members of the dominant ecclesiastical institution.

We were told the Middle Ages was an example of this, and so was Constantine, and given examples of Christians who suffered under "Christian" governments. The Martyr's Mirror is full of this.

But now it feels like some Mennonites are longing for a big bully who will beat up our moral enemies and save us from persecution. I don't think that ends well. Not for the purity of our faith, not for our safety from persecution, not for our focus on Jesus Christ and walking as he walked and taught.

[HondurasKeiser]

I didn't state that individual rights flow out of Mosaic Law. I asked where those rights come from broadly speaking.

Gotcha. I agree that they are a western tradition. But they are more of a heritage of Greek and Roman philosophy than Judaism or Christianity.

I disagree Ken. I think individual rights arise in the west only after it's saturation with christians. Judaism theoretically has believed in the value of human life because of God's image, but it took christians to carry those values into the broader culture. Emporer Julian bemoaned the high level of care for the downtrodden christians displayed so much that he singled it out as the source of their strength. "They care not only for their own poor, but ours as well..."

Which is of a piece with the movement from Hebraic particularism, "God's chosen People" to Christian Universalism, "God so loved the World...".

[Ken]

Gotcha. I agree that they are a western tradition. But they are more of a heritage of Greek and Roman philosophy than Judaism or Christianity.

I disagree Ken. I think individual rights arise in the west only after it's saturation with christians. Judaism theoretically has believed in the value of human life because of God's image, but it took christians to carry those values into the broader culture. Emporer Julian bemoaned the high level of care for the downtrodden christians displayed so much that he singled it out as the source of their strength. "They care not only for their own poor, but ours as well..."

Which is of a piece with the movement from Hebraic particularism, "God's chosen People" to Christian Universalism, "God so loved the World...".

Yes, but caring for the individual is really more of a characteristic of communal societies and not individualistic societies. Christianity is all about loving your neighbor and creating a community. It is a selfless religion.

I see that as fundamentally different from the American sense of individual personal liberty in a libertarian sense where the freedom means the freedom to do your own thing or pursue your own path unfettered by obligations or demands by government or community.

Christianity is very much in opposition to personal liberty or freedom. It is all about obligations to God and your community and family.