LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Ken]

I think secular laws should be based on secular arguments or rationale. So taking the example of gay marriage, if there are legitimate secular arguments to restrict gay marriage (or LGBT rights in general) then people can make those arguments and the legislative process can consider them. But I would oppose secular laws based only on religious arguments. That is tantamount to a theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

A related example is polygamy. There are very legitimate secular reasons to prohibit polygamy. You can get into a tremendous mess with things like inheritance, custody, and so forth when you have polygamist marriages and divorce. If you have a family with 3 wives and one husband, and one wife files for divorce and leaves, who owes child support and alimony? Who gets custody of children? Who's names are even on the birth certificates of any children from a polygamist marriage? Who is entitled to social security and other government benefits? What are the inheritance rules if one spouse dies? It becomes a whole horrid mess to sort out. It may well be that the secular arguments against polygamy are still insufficient to outweigh the infringement on freedom and religion that such laws entail. But that is a proper argument for the legislatures and courts.

If one wants to make similar secular arguments against gay marriage. And those arguments are compelling enough to outweigh the 14th Amendment rights to equal protection under the law then fine. I just don't think secular law should be based entirely on religious arguments.

As for Christian persecution. I fail to see how anyone's private relationship, gay or straight, has any effect on other citizens, Christian or otherwise. You may find it distasteful, but it isn't persecution to have to live in a society in which gay marriage is legal. Any more than it is Christian persecution to live in a society in which divorce is legal.

"secular" western morality is based on Judeo-Christian principles, except you make the individual god, which is incoherent.

"solely secular" is a way of either saying "based on Christian morality, but we don't want to admit it" , OR "Anti-Christ". There is no in between.

God created the world, and all natural law. You can't separate morality from the natural law.

Sure you can. Japan is a highly moral and ordered society with far less problems than American society. With a murder rate that is 26-times lower than the US and a rate of violent rape that is 66-times lower than the US. Just to cite two examples. We can look at other metrics like divorce rate or abortion rate if you like. Both of which are about half that of the US.

None of Japanese law or sense of morality is based on anything to do with Judeo-Christian traditions or principles. Or a Judeo-Christian God. To the extent that any of it is religious-based it would be Buddhist and Shinto which are the two traditional and cultural religions in Japan.

[Karstan78]

I personally like Hungary‘s approach. It’s not illegal, however traditional families are protected. And they strongly use Christian principles in their law making.
Poland is another, in this day and age these countries are showing a country can try to live morally and westernised.

[Josh]

secular" western morality is based on Judeo-Christian principles,

What exactly are judeo-Christian principles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

[joshuabgood]

secular" western morality is based on Judeo-Christian principles,

What exactly are judeo-Christian principles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

[temporal1]

I personally like Hungary‘s approach. It’s not illegal, however traditional families are protected.
And they strongly use Christian principles in their law making. Poland is another, in this day and age these countries are showing a country can try to live morally and westernised.

i’m encouraged reading this.
i’ve been interested in Poland+Hungary for several years, reading they are pro-family and not God-denying/destroying.
but i see so little!

i’ve read that a few years ago, Hungary passed laws to encourage families, more children, and, results are positive!
but i see so little.

now i read Poland+Hungary are taking the majority of Ukraine’s refugees. i pray this has short+long term benefits for Ukraine, Poland and Hungary, and the world. i imagine it, and i pray for it. for all involved.

i’ve read both countries are under (expected+predictable) attack from the Left-West.
the ultimate+dedicated meddlers/“colonial imperialists” of this new century. they do not sleep.
they can’t rest. not possible. human reasoning alone is empty, it cannot nurture or sustain. it tricks+lies.

i pray for hearts+minds to be converted.

What great good God may have planned to arise out of this earthly train wreck! amen

[temporal1]

Am I the only one who understood the headline as "LGBT as promoters of Christian persecution"?

LGTB nowadays is an antipluralist/totalitarian movement whose goal is to crush all dissidents.
They are still handicapped by some libertarian traditions, but they use all holes in the law and, from what I can see, they have no scruples. The only protection would be a clearcut general freedom of conscience.

Russian Christians ought better be fearful, or cautious at least.

For crying out loud, these are not meek individuals looking for their own lifestyle.
These are hard-nosed professional activists.
They make a living out of invoking menaces and dangers, identifying and destroying possible opponents.
They get paid for it by the public with whose anxieties they play.

This is a particular kind of business people and they have nothing particular to do with being gay etc.
The same kind of business model has been developped for other parts of the population.

As i understand you, i believe you are describing what i think of as the now powerful+monied organized political bloc/cult,
definitely not meek, honestly, not human or humane.

It shamelessly exploits and claims ownership of real people, real souls. This has caused untold confusion+destruction.

For many years i’ve seen this as a 2-part challenge. The first is the individual soul, sinner, God-created human.
The second is the now completely unweildy human construct, the organized political bloc/cult.

2 very different challenges. “we” can easily be confused. God sees clearly, in whole.

i think you are correct, there comes a time to see that a spade is a spade.

[Ken]

secular" western morality is based on Judeo-Christian principles,

What exactly are judeo-Christian principles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

That is an utterly absurd notion on every level.

[Szdfan]

What exactly are judeo-Christian principles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

I have Jewish acquaintances who find the term deeply offensive, a kind of imperialism in which Christianity attempts to force itself upon and define Judaism. I don’t think “Judeo-Christian” is a theological term, but a political, culture war one.

[Ken]

Crack open your Bible and you’ll find out.

A starting point might be the Ten Commandments.

Well "Christian" means like Christ. So I would expect anything with the Christian label to in fact look like the message and witness of Jesus. Which means suffering service, giving the cloak also, laying down one's life, etc.

Judeo - on the other hand means something else...

It is cognitive dissonance. Ask a Jewish Rabbi to explain it to you if you don't believe me.

I have Jewish acquaintances who find the term deeply offensive, a kind of imperialism in which Christianity attempts to force itself upon and define Judaism. I don’t think “Judeo-Christian” is a theological term, but a political, culture war one.

Exactly. American Christians popularized the term "Judeo-Christian" in the 20th Century to make the public embracing of Christianity sound more ecumenical and less theocratic. But Christian culture warriors never consult Judaism on any issue from abortion to school prayer or anything else.

[HondurasKeiser]

I think secular laws should be based on secular arguments or rationale. So taking the example of gay marriage, if there are legitimate secular arguments to restrict gay marriage (or LGBT rights in general) then people can make those arguments and the legislative process can consider them. But I would oppose secular laws based only on religious arguments. That is tantamount to a theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

A related example is polygamy. There are very legitimate secular reasons to prohibit polygamy. You can get into a tremendous mess with things like inheritance, custody, and so forth when you have polygamist marriages and divorce. If you have a family with 3 wives and one husband, and one wife files for divorce and leaves, who owes child support and alimony? Who gets custody of children? Who's names are even on the birth certificates of any children from a polygamist marriage? Who is entitled to social security and other government benefits? What are the inheritance rules if one spouse dies? It becomes a whole horrid mess to sort out. It may well be that the secular arguments against polygamy are still insufficient to outweigh the infringement on freedom and religion that such laws entail. But that is a proper argument for the legislatures and courts.

If one wants to make similar secular arguments against gay marriage. And those arguments are compelling enough to outweigh the 14th Amendment rights to equal protection under the law then fine. I just don't think secular law should be based entirely on religious arguments.

As for Christian persecution. I fail to see how anyone's private relationship, gay or straight, has any effect on other citizens, Christian or otherwise. You may find it distasteful, but it isn't persecution to have to live in a society in which gay marriage is legal. Any more than it is Christian persecution to live in a society in which divorce is legal.

What are secular arguments and rationales?