Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

I don't think Russia is remotely the most evil place on earth. I'd rather live in Russia than places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Myanmar, Sudan, etc.

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that Russia is any sort of paragon of moral virtue compared to the west. And that this brutal, violent, and destructive invasion of Ukraine is part of any sort of justifiable moral campaign against "western decadence" or whatever nonsense the Russians are saying. By invading and bombing/destroying Ukrainian cities they absolutely forfeit any possible claim they might have ever had to morality or moral superiority.

I also don't think the US is any paragon of moral virtue either. We are frankly more like Russia than many western European countries when it comes to most social measures such as crime, violence, murders, etc.

So you idealize places like Germany, Japan, and the UK?

I don't idealize any place. There are many place that do some things better than the US. And there are some things that the US does better than anyone else. But I wouldn't put Russia on the top of the list on any metric I can think of. I don't think there is any place on earth that doesn't have room for improvement.

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

[nett]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Before anyone gets the pitchforks. I'm not trying to make a case Russia is doing a good thing, and The Ukraine deserves it. I'm making a case for Christians remaining neutral on the morality of this invasion.

[joshuabgood]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Before anyone gets the pitchforks. I'm not trying to make a case Russia is doing a good thing, and The Ukraine deserves it. I'm making a case for Christians remaining neutral on the morality of this invasion.

If being neutral means not joining the violence on either side because this is what political kingdoms do, then I agree. If being neutral means not being able to speak truth to power about the evils of killing children and bombing hospitals, then no.

[nett]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Before anyone gets the pitchforks. I'm not trying to make a case Russia is doing a good thing, and The Ukraine deserves it. I'm making a case for Christians remaining neutral on the morality of this invasion.

If being neutral means not joining the violence on either side because this is what political kingdoms do, then I agree. If being neutral means not being able to speak truth to power about the evils of killing children and bombing hospitals, then no.

All war involves killing children, and destroying infrastructure. Do you condemn all war in all cases?

[Bootstrap]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Sounds a lot like what Hitler said. And he put gays in concentration camps, dealt with the Jews he claimed were running the world order in the same way, and declared war on the global west. Some "fine Christians", including some Mennonites, supported him because they thought he was championing traditional values. I think that was a big mistake. And of course, the people who defended Hitler could not understand why other people denied that the Jews were a dangerous conspiracy that was destroying Germany's future.

What makes you so sure that you understand what Russia is doing and people who do not support him just don't understand? Why is it better when Putin says these things to justify his invasion, war atrocities, jailing those who speak up against it, etc?

Is this a contest to see who can shout "I hate gays" the loudest and make up the most vivid lies about opponents? Is that the way to prove you are the champion of morality and stability, even as you threaten the stability of the world as a whole? Do you defend Putin because he hates the West and he hates gays and is willing to use violence and oppression in ways that go beyond what most people would do? Do you see that as strength?

Because Jesus ... kind of stood up for the woman caught in adultery against the Pharisees, he did not justify stoning her, but he was very clear that adultery is sin. And I suspect I belong in that same camp.

[nett]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Sounds a lot like what Hitler said. And he put gays in concentration camps, dealt with the Jews he claimed were running the world order in the same way, and declared war on the global west. Some "fine Christians", including some Mennonites, supported him because they thought he was championing traditional values. I think that was a big mistake. And of course, the people who defended him could not understand why other people denied that the Jews were a dangerous conspiracy that was destroying Germany's future. They were clearly on the wrong side.

Why is it better when Putin says these things to justify his invasion, war atrocities, jailing those who speak up against it, etc?

Is this a contest to see who can shout "I hate gays" the loudest and make up the most vivid lies about opponents? Is that the way to prove you are the champion of morality and stability, even as you threaten the stability of the world as a whole?

Because Jesus ... kind of stood up for the woman caught in adultery against the Pharisees, he did not justify stoning her, but he was very clear that adultery is sin. And I suspect I belong in that same camp.

What is the difference between political oppression of free speech and corporate suppression (what he have in the west now) thereof? At least political oppression is not behind the guise of a "free society".

Jesus was explicitly not a political leader. The Pharisees (not the Romans) were trying to trap him, and he showed the way of His kingdom to the religious leaders of the day. Did Jesus ever advise the Romans not to carry out justice?

Regarding the tired old "everybody I don't like is Hitler" arguments. Has Putin started an ethnic cleansing campaign that I'm not aware of? While we're on the topic, which did God care less for the Weimar Republic or the Third Reich? Which was more righteous?

If you care so much about hiterl-esque ethnic genocide, you should be more enraged by China and atrocities committed against the Uighurs. You can actually take some action in that case too. You could easily call for personal boycotts against any companies doing business in China, or buying goods from China, but that would be a little too uncomfortable personally. It's a lot easier to be an armchair white knight virtue signaling about how Putin is the next Hitler, than to actually do something.

[Ken]

Before anyone gets the pitchforks. I'm not trying to make a case Russia is doing a good thing, and The Ukraine deserves it. I'm making a case for Christians remaining neutral on the morality of this invasion.

If being neutral means not joining the violence on either side because this is what political kingdoms do, then I agree. If being neutral means not being able to speak truth to power about the evils of killing children and bombing hospitals, then no.

All war involves killing children, and destroying infrastructure. Do you condemn all war in all cases?

I most certainly condemn ALL wars that are wars of choice or wars of aggression by one country against another. I other words, wars where a country chooses to go to war to achieve political objectives rather than using other peaceful means to resolve disputes.

I don't necessarily always condemn people under attack from defending themselves. And I don't always condemn people rising up against oppression. But one should always seek alternative ways to achieve one's objectives rather than resorting to war and violence. Gandhi and MLK both taught us that peaceful methods can be stronger and more compelling than resorting to violence. Black civil rights leaders could have plunged the south and the country into a sectarian and racial civil war in the 1950s and 1960s. Thankfully they chose not to. And they were right not to. I also tend to think that the Palestinians would have been more likely to have achieved a homeland by now had they followed the leads of Gandhi and MLK and resorted to peaceful persuasion and international pressure from the beginning rather than instigating endless war and violence against Israel. In the case of the Palestinians, I think war and violence was ultimately counterproductive.

So I hesitate to say that war and violence is NEVER the answer. I think Jews during the Holocaust were justified in resisting the Nazis even with violence as they did in the Warsaw Uprising. I can't say they should have remained peaceful and just gone willingly to the gas chambers. And I think countries that are victims of aggression from their neighbors are also entitled to defend themselves. But should also seek every other avenue for peace as well.

[Ken]

Regarding the tired old "everybody I don't like is Hitler" arguments. Has Putin started an ethnic cleansing campaign that I'm not aware of? While we're on the topic, which did God care less for the Weimar Republic or the Third Reich? Which was more righteous?

Yes, actually there are reports of Russian troops in areas of Russian control rounding up and deporting ethnic Ukrainians to locations deep within Russia. Which is the very definition of "ethnic cleansing". Of course with the fog of war it is difficult to discern what is actually happening on the ground. But if the Russians dispute these accusations they could certainly let in international observers which they are not doing. Whatever they are doing, they are deliberately hiding it from view.

[Bootstrap]

What is the difference between political oppression of free speech and corporate suppression (what he have in the west now) thereof? At least political oppression is not behind the guise of a "free society".

You haven't spent any time behind the iron curtain. I have. I'd like to take you to Sachsenhausen, the concentration camp outside of Berlin, and show you that they continued to use these camps, but for political prisoners. I used to watch East German propaganda on TV. There's a difference, trust me.

Would you like to have been a serf in Tsarist Russia, the period that Putin now idolizes in his speeches? Would you like to be a person living in a neighboring country?

Regarding the tired old "everybody I don't like is Hitler" arguments. Has Putin started an ethnic cleansing campaign that I'm not aware of? While we're on the topic, which did God care less for the Weimar Republic or the Third Reich? Which was more righteous?

You mean the tired old "every dictator who poisons or imprisons his political foes, insists that even basic truths like the fact they are at war with another country may not be said out loud without threat of jail or worse, jails protestors, and starts the biggest military invasion since World War II is actually the kind of tyrant we should be worried about"? This is not like calling Justin Trudeau or George Bush Hitler.

How much blood do you need to see before you start getting uncomfortable?

And take a good look at Putin in Chechnya. And some of the mysteries surrounding the secret police and those bombings. Declaring that Ukraine has no right to be a country and that their language is not a language and that they should belong to Russia ... sounds a lot like saying this people has no right to exist.

If you care so much about hiterl-esque ethnic genocide, you should be more enraged by China and atrocities committed against the Uighurs. You can actually take some action in that case too. You could easily call for personal boycotts against any companies doing business in China, or buying goods from China, but that would be a little too uncomfortable personally. It's a lot easier to be an armchair white knight virtue signaling about how Putin is the next Hitler, than to actually do something.

China is another example of a dangerous dictatorship. And of course, they have announced an alliance.

You won't see me defending either China or Russia in these actions. And you won't see me attacking either Ukraine or the Uighurs or Taiwan.

And if you want to fight liberalism, remember that Hitler and Mussolini probably did more to promote liberalism in Europe than anyone else. Because of the stink of what they had done. And the church suffered a serious loss of credibility because of the degree to which it had cooperated.

[JimFoxvog]

Dennis Prager tries to separate “liberal” from the “Left.”
Probably worthwhile, maybe esp for those who vote. But for purposes of discussions, too.

“ Prager: America Caught Between Russia and China Externally and the Left Internally”
https://heartlanddailynews.com/2022/03/ ... nternally/

America is caught between an external and an internal threat.
The external is an economically aggressive and America-hating China and a nuclear-equipped, America-hating Russia;
the internal is a non-nuclear, America-hating Left.

(As I always note, “Left” is not the same as “liberal”;
in fact, leftism poses a mortal threat to liberalism. ..

The greatest contemporary tragedy in American life is that most liberals are unwilling to acknowledge this
and continue to vote for the Left.) .. ..

I would need some evidence to "acknowledge this". I know many people who would identify as "left" but none that are "America-hating." Those on the left disapprove of some things the US has done and is doing; so do those on the right.