Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

Are you suggesting that people who kill people in the name of national defense can expect salvation if they do not repent of such killings? Or are you suggesting that people who kill evildoers are doing what God wants them to do but that God will punish them for doing what He wants them to do?

Kind David was unable to build the temple because of all the blood he shed. There seem to be some spiritual consequences for the leaders of nations that wage violent war. I do not believe that war is inherently an evil act for a nation though. The bible gives no indication of that.

[barnhart]

I read that the number of dead among Russian army is likely around 10,000, I don't know how many Ukrainians. In the 2010's my wife and I did international student ministry so it's easy for me to see the faces of the dead, they are Rustam, bright, funny, articulate with a super dry sense of humor and charming Russian accent, vaguely interested in Jesus but turned to the things of this world. Rustam was also drafted into the Russian army to fight in a conflict he had no interest in, at least he survived.

[Josh]

I read that the number of dead among Russian army is likely around 10,000, I don't know how many Ukrainians. In the 2010's my wife and I did international student ministry so it's easy for me to see the faces of the dead, they are Rustam, bright, funny, articulate with a super dry sense of humor and charming Russian accent, vaguely interested in Jesus but turned to the things of this world. Rustam was also drafted into the Russian army to fight in a conflict he had no interest in, at least he survived.

I think the same thing about the Ukrainian young men I met who now face conscription if they didn’t get out fast enough.

[ohio jones]

There is no change to the biblical mandate for nations in the new covenant, the new covenant only changes things for the followers of Christ, and I don't really think nations can follow Christ, since following Christ means abdicating the use of force, which would make any nation immediately cease to exist.

I don't think I agree with the first part. The new covenant changes things for Jews who followed the old covenant but did not follow Christ, for example. The new covenant changes the way God governs his people, so why would other governments not also be affected?

I do agree with the second part. I look forward to the time when that happens. Isaiah 2:4 and 9:7, etc.

[ken_sylvania]

I continue to contend that it is very difficult to condemn unprovoked invasion on a Biblical basis. No one seems to want to discuss this though. Maybe because it presents a problem for establishing moral superiority.

I think it's easy. Jesus said "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you. I cannot see how any rational person could believe that an unprovoked invasion constitutes obedience to this teaching.

But fighting back because you think you were invaded doesn’t constitute obedience to this teaching either.

That’s the crux here.

Fighting back against invasion (real or imagined) is also in direct disobedience to Jesus' teaching, but that has nothing to do with nett's claim that I was responding to. Nett claimed that the Bible doesn't clearly condemn unprovoked invasion, not that it doesn't clearly condemn self defense.

[Jazman]

How do you think God feels about this? What kind of judgement happened in the OT because of this kind of thing?

What does posting imgs of homosexual dancing have anything to do with this conflict...? Is there some narrative I'm missing that's suggesting Ukraine is more 'gay/homosexual' than Russia and so god's using 'christian' Russia to smite the Ukrainians (or West?)
If so then this seems to suggest a mixed up, unBiblical theology that I hear in our american evangelical world, that seems to rank sin and places some sins above others...
BTW, Russia may not be as 'gay' as the West, but it's a highly sexualized society... I've been there... So what if they have some anti-gay or anti-abortion law on the books... or Putin says this or that - doesn't make it more 'christian' and therefore has some God blessing for acting the way they are now...
Russia has a HUGE problem with drunkeness... stealing/cheating via corruption, deep deep systemic oppression of the poor by local mobs and oligarchs etc... Go ahead; bring up OT moral laws... Russia (and America) fail on so many counts in that regard, I would find it beyond absurd to suggest Russia earns the right to play moral enforcer...

[Neto]

How do you think God feels about this? What kind of judgement happened in the OT because of this kind of thing?

What does posting imgs of homosexual dancing have anything to do with this conflict...? Is there some narrative I'm missing that's suggesting Ukraine is more 'gay/homosexual' than Russia and so god's using 'christian' Russia to smite the Ukrainians (or West?)
If so then this seems to suggest a mixed up, unBiblical theology that I hear in our american evangelical world, that seems to rank sin and places some sins above others...
BTW, Russia may not be as 'gay' as the West, but it's a highly sexualized society... I've been there... So what if they have some anti-gay or anti-abortion law on the books... or Putin says this or that - doesn't make it more 'christian' and therefore has some God blessing for acting the way they are now...
Russia has a HUGE problem with drunkeness... stealing/cheating via corruption, deep deep systemic oppression of the poor by local mobs and oligarchs etc... Go ahead; bring up OT moral laws... Russia (and America) fail on so many counts in that regard, I would find it beyond absurd to suggest Russia earns the right to play moral enforcer...

Those photos do not appear on my side, so I didn't see that, or know what it was about. But I did hear (some time ago, before the Russian Federation started this war in Ukraine) that one of the criteria of joining NATO would be to legalize some of this immorality. I don't know if that has been the cause of some hesitation or lack of support for NATO on the part of some Ukrainians, but I wouldn't be surprised, and it seems to indicate that someone in NATO thought there was a problem with Ukraine's stance on these types of things.

[nett]

How do you think God feels about this? What kind of judgement happened in the OT because of this kind of thing?

What does posting imgs of homosexual dancing have anything to do with this conflict...? Is there some narrative I'm missing that's suggesting Ukraine is more 'gay/homosexual' than Russia and so god's using 'christian' Russia to smite the Ukrainians (or West?)
If so then this seems to suggest a mixed up, unBiblical theology that I hear in our american evangelical world, that seems to rank sin and places some sins above others...

I think you have this backwards, Evangelical christianity is quite committed to the idea that all sins are equal. Which is not a belief I hold. i take 1 John 5:16-17 literally.

BTW, Russia may not be as 'gay' as the West, but it's a highly sexualized society... I've been there... So what if they have some anti-gay or anti-abortion law on the books... or Putin says this or that - doesn't make it more 'christian' and therefore has some God blessing for acting the way they are now...
Russia has a HUGE problem with drunkeness... stealing/cheating via corruption, deep deep systemic oppression of the poor by local mobs and oligarchs etc... Go ahead; bring up OT moral laws... Russia (and America) fail on so many counts in that regard, I would find it beyond absurd to suggest Russia earns the right to play moral enforcer...

Putin, while being a rank sinner himself, has still pushed back on the degeneracy of the west in legal and in cultural ways, like the "gay propaganda" law.

Zelensky, as a celebrity and comedian is unfortunately the face of western degeneracy. Promoting degeneracy is objectively worse than pushing back on it. Pointing out that there are other issues in Russia does not negate that.

Ukraine has all the same problems you brought up, but under Zelensky, they are also rushing headlong into the sodomy of the West.

[nett]

Nett claimed that the Bible doesn't clearly condemn unprovoked invasion

I think Amos 1:3–2:3 reflects on evil acts during war (ripping open pregnant women to expand a border), and then actually equates those acts to Israel's mistreatment of the poor and their immorality, and prophecies the same judgement.

This is a high standard for nations. I am troubled by all the hand wringing in this thread, because it's very contrived, and influenced by the prevailing voices of our age.

God views a nation that mistreats it's poor, and allows rampant immorality in the the same as he views a nation that does HORRIFYING things in war, but for some reason, there is very little handwringing about the western political ideology that oppresses the lower class, and allows unspeakable immorality.

The voices of our age rejoice in immorality, and in capitalism oppressing the meek and poor. We should tune out any such voices.

[Ken]

How do you think God feels about this? What kind of judgement happened in the OT because of this kind of thing?

What does posting imgs of homosexual dancing have anything to do with this conflict...? Is there some narrative I'm missing that's suggesting Ukraine is more 'gay/homosexual' than Russia and so god's using 'christian' Russia to smite the Ukrainians (or West?)
If so then this seems to suggest a mixed up, unBiblical theology that I hear in our american evangelical world, that seems to rank sin and places some sins above others...

I think you have this backwards, Evangelical christianity is quite committed to the idea that all sins are equal. Which is not a belief I hold. i take 1 John 5:16-17 literally.

BTW, Russia may not be as 'gay' as the West, but it's a highly sexualized society... I've been there... So what if they have some anti-gay or anti-abortion law on the books... or Putin says this or that - doesn't make it more 'christian' and therefore has some God blessing for acting the way they are now...
Russia has a HUGE problem with drunkeness... stealing/cheating via corruption, deep deep systemic oppression of the poor by local mobs and oligarchs etc... Go ahead; bring up OT moral laws... Russia (and America) fail on so many counts in that regard, I would find it beyond absurd to suggest Russia earns the right to play moral enforcer...

Putin, while being a rank sinner himself, has still pushed back on the degeneracy of the west in legal and in cultural ways, like the "gay propaganda" law.

Zelensky, as a celebrity and comedian is unfortunately the face of western degeneracy. Promoting degeneracy is objectively worse than pushing back on it. Pointing out that there are other issues in Russia does not negate that.

Ukraine has all the same problems you brought up, but under Zelensky, they are also rushing headlong into the sodomy of the West.

Russia has measurably higher levels of social sin and dysfunction that just about any society in the west or western Europe. Alcoholism, rape and sexual abuse, drug abuse organized crime, murder,

Or are these not sins in your world?

Here, for example, is the murder rate for Russia compared to a random selection of western European countries. We can see similar patterns for crime, rape, sexual abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, organized crime, etc. Tell us again how Russian society is a paragon of virtue compared to the west. That makes this war some sort of justifiable moral crusade against the west. Or are LGBT rights a bigger sin than murder in your theology?