Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing because it's a liberal / neo-con fantasy that never existed. Let's have some straight talk here. The US funded the coup in 2014, and the blessed new guard thought that their compliance would bring security assurances. That's not "freedom and autonomy", that's being a US client state, which hasn't worked out so well over the last month.

I'm getting tired of the implicit view that being under the control and influence of the west, means "sovereignty, freedom and autonomy", but being under the control of Russia means basically hell. It's just not factual anymore.

In an age of global hegemony, independence and sovereignty are merely illusions for all but the most powerful.

[Bootstrap]

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing because it's a liberal / neo-con fantasy that never existed. Let's have some straight talk here. The US funded the coup in 2014, and the blessed new guard thought that their compliance would bring security assurances. That's not "freedom and autonomy", that's being a US client state, which hasn't worked out so well over the last month.

Well, that's what Putin claims. And therefore, Putin claims the right to own Ukraine. And to own several other countries in the region. Do you think Russian imperialism is a virtue? I cannot think of any scenario where the United States would have the kind of control over Ukraine that Putin insists on.

The revolution was about joining the European Union, not the United States, not NATO. Huge numbers of Ukranians risked their lives in the protests. When Yanukovych fled to Russia, the Ukranian parliament ruled that he could no longer rule the country. The Ukranian courts ruled Yanukovych had committed treason by selling them out to Russia.

Former President Viktor F. Yanukovych committed treason by inviting Russia to invade Ukraine and reverse a pro-Western revolution that ousted him from power, a court in Kiev ruled on Thursday, sentencing Mr. Yanukovych to 13 years in prison.

The former president is a widely reviled figure in Ukraine for his over-the-top corruption — he lived in a palace with a private zoo — and because the police shot dozens of antigovernment demonstrators during an uprising in 2014. He has also been widely characterized in Ukraine and the West as pro-Russia — and even as a puppet of the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin.

The court’s ruling was the first to formally determine that Mr. Yanukovych was serving Russian interests while president of Ukraine.

Mr. Yanukovych fled to Russia after being ousted in February 2014 and was tried in absentia. The treason case focused narrowly on one episode of his downfall: a last-ditch effort to hold onto power after he had already fled the capital by appealing to Mr. Putin to intervene militarily on his behalf.

Prosecutors pointed to a letter Mr. Yanukovych sent to Mr. Putin as an indication of treason. Though Russian forces did invade Ukraine within days of Mr. Yanukovych’s fall, the Kremlin never in fact accepted his plea for help as a legal pretext for doing so.

Russia’s ambassador to the United Nations at the time, Vitaly I. Churkin, read Mr. Yanukovych’s appeal at a Security Council meeting in March 2014. The Russian Senate also authorized military action abroad.

But rather than rely on Mr. Yanukovych’s invitation, Russia intervened using a ruse: Soldiers wearing uniforms without identifying insignia turned up on the Crimean Peninsula and in two provinces in eastern Ukraine. Russian officials said they were local militia or members of a motorcycle gang.

[mike]

There have been indications that Belarus is planning to support Russia’s invasion by joining the fight.

[ohio jones]

I'm getting tired of the implicit view that being under the control and influence of the west, means "sovereignty, freedom and autonomy", but being under the control of Russia means basically hell. It's just not factual anymore.

The transition from being influenced by the west to being controlled by Russia is basically hell.

[Ken]

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing because it's a liberal / neo-con fantasy that never existed. Let's have some straight talk here. The US funded the coup in 2014, and the blessed new guard thought that their compliance would bring security assurances. That's not "freedom and autonomy", that's being a US client state, which hasn't worked out so well over the last month.

I'm getting tired of the implicit view that being under the control and influence of the west, means "sovereignty, freedom and autonomy", but being under the control of Russia means basically hell. It's just not factual anymore.

In an age of global hegemony, independence and sovereignty are merely illusions for all but the most powerful.

How many Ukrainian soldiers have been shot by NATO troops?
How many Ukrainian cities have been bombed by NATO bombers?

There is zero equivalence between western governments and companies that have been invited into Ukraine and what Russia is doing today.

In any event, none of that really matters. The future of Ukraine should be decided by Ukrainians, not Russia or the CIA. I'm not sure why that is such a difficult concept to grasp.

[temporal1]

It’s probably a good idea to recognize Putin’s proposals:
Not listening has been part of what led to the invasion, to begin.
Not listening shouldn’t become a dedicated career.

Russia's demands

The West has a problem of how to withdraw without revealing Putin may be the most lucid in the room.
How can the West withdraw and save face? .. Most important to them, how to get support for biden/DNC?

Yes. i believe they are that petty.

i don’t see, “Russia will refuse to recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty.”
not here, nor in any other report on the talks. (the talks are private. not all details are known.)

[Bootstrap]

I'm getting tired of the implicit view that being under the control and influence of the west, means "sovereignty, freedom and autonomy", but being under the control of Russia means basically hell. It's just not factual anymore.

The transition from being influenced by the west to being controlled by Russia is basically hell.

And that's precisely why countries that Russia wants to control are pleading to join NATO. Nobody is forcing NATO on them. If I recall correctly - I haven't double checked - Ukraine was not seeking NATO membership until the war with Russia started in 2014 after Ukraine sought EU membership and ousted Yanukovych.

If you look at the newspapers today, you can understand why Ukraine might want protection against Russia.

NATO never invaded a Warsaw Pact country. The Warsaw Pact did invade its own members, including both Czechoslovakia and Hungary - they both support Ukraine in this war.

It still maybe unwise to extend NATO further. It might lead to more war by provoking Russia. Or less by controlling Russia. I have no idea, really. But Ukraine's desire to join NATO is not some Western plot to get Russia.

[temporal1]

From what i’ve read (which is, of course, handicapped by the necessity of PRIVATE talks) NATO is not “on the table” for Ukraine.
It’s not what NATO might do, but what NATO has done (expansion over years) that caused or contributed to this outbreak.

Honestly, trying to read past the hype, it sure looks like Russia is basically asking for FORMER agreements to be honored.

The hyperbole and framing is destructive, on both sides. i hope those in actual talks are keeping cool heads, they seem to be.
i pray they are. Outsiders are not.

The talks need to be serious enough to stop military action, a truce, at least, both sides/all sides.

In Vietnam, many complained the U.S. was not focused on winning/ending the war, but supporting chronic war, a literal meatgrinder for citizens+troops. In the end, retreating with lots of refugees. When LBJ called for “200,000 more troops,” my father was livid. Even people i met (later) who were retired military hated Vietnam.

Lyndon Johnson expresses escalation concerns | The President Calling.
When the heavy bombing campaign, code named Rolling Thunder, failed to daunt the North Vietnamese; President Johnson decided to send in a huge wave of ground troops, some 200,000 by autumn of 1965.

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org › ...
Lyndon Johnson expresses escalation concerns | The President Calling - American Public Media

i was young, i didn’t know what to think. but i was aware my father did not believe LBJ or Congress valued lives (of very young men) they were willing to sacrifice. Ordinary families buried their sons. In a war/conflict they were not allowed to win. They were sent to die, not win.

Zelensky may be wondering what’s going on. Promises, promises. Ukraine is suffering.
He has to deal with 2 wolves. 1 would have been more than enough.

Zelensky is reported to be “talking big” to Putin - based on promises of the West. i would HATE to be in his shoes.

[nett]

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

It's a bad thing because it's a liberal / neo-con fantasy that never existed. Let's have some straight talk here. The US funded the coup in 2014, and the blessed new guard thought that their compliance would bring security assurances. That's not "freedom and autonomy", that's being a US client state, which hasn't worked out so well over the last month.

Well, that's what Putin claims. And therefore, Putin claims the right to own Ukraine. And to own several other countries in the region. Do you think Russian imperialism is a virtue? I cannot think of any scenario where the United States would have the kind of control over Ukraine that Putin insists on.

Can you think of any other countries though?

[nett]

I'm getting tired of the implicit view that being under the control and influence of the west, means "sovereignty, freedom and autonomy", but being under the control of Russia means basically hell. It's just not factual anymore.

The transition from being influenced by the west to being controlled by Russia is basically hell.

Ah yes, and those seven children killed influenced by the Aug 28th drone strike in Afghanistan were experiencing the western equivalent of heaven on earth.