Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Falco Underhill]

Russian foreign minister

Well, yes. That’s one reason why the West is freaking out about this.

Um...I believe it could get there...but this reads like hyperbole to me at the moment. At this point, I think this is more simply a Russian land-grab in the face of NATO expansion.

What will it take for you to say we're finally "there?"

[Ken]

Well, yes. That’s one reason why the West is freaking out about this.

Um...I believe it could get there...but this reads like hyperbole to me at the moment. At this point, I think this is more simply a Russian land-grab in the face of NATO expansion.

What will it take for you to say we're finally "there?"

Lavrov is right.

And this decision by Russia to wage an expansionist war in Ukraine is doing more to solidify and unite the "west" in opposition to dictatorships, oppression, and wars of aggression than any single event since perhaps the Berlin Airlift of 1949.

Western Europe and NATO will emerge stronger and more united than ever. And far less dependent on Russian fossil fuels. Meanwhile this folly of Putin's will likely diminish Russia down to about the relevance of Mexico.

[Josh]

Um...I believe it could get there...but this reads like hyperbole to me at the moment. At this point, I think this is more simply a Russian land-grab in the face of NATO expansion.

What will it take for you to say we're finally "there?"

Lavrov is right.

And this decision by Russia to wage an expansionist war in Ukraine is doing more to solidify and unite the "west" in opposition to dictatorships, oppression, and wars of aggression than any single event since perhaps the Berlin Airlift of 1949.

Western Europe and NATO will emerge stronger and more united than ever. And far less dependent on Russian fossil fuels. Meanwhile this folly of Putin's will likely diminish Russia down to about the relevance of Mexico.

Less dependent on Russian energy?

Last I heard we were begging Venezuela and the Arabs, the latter of whom wouldn’t even take our phone calls. Instead they rang up China and talked about dealing in yuan instead of dollars.

Meanwhile Germany continues to be more dependent on Russian energy, not less. The big winners in this are energy exporters.

[Falco Underhill]

Um...I believe it could get there...but this reads like hyperbole to me at the moment. At this point, I think this is more simply a Russian land-grab in the face of NATO expansion.

What will it take for you to say we're finally "there?"

Lavrov is right.

And this decision by Russia to wage an expansionist war in Ukraine is doing more to solidify and unite the "west" in opposition to dictatorships, oppression, and wars of aggression than any single event since perhaps the Berlin Airlift of 1949.

Western Europe and NATO will emerge stronger and more united than ever. And far less dependent on Russian fossil fuels. Meanwhile this folly of Putin's will likely diminish Russia down to about the relevance of Mexico.

That wasn't what I asked.

[temporal1]

Russian foreign minister

.. i believe it could get there...but this reads like hyperbole to me at the moment.
At this point, I think this is more simply a Russian land-grab in the face of NATO expansion.

i hope you’re right about hyperbole - whether it’s from Russians or biden or media or other speculators.

“Why Biden and the White House keep talking about World War III”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... d-war-iii/

no one has explained why a neutral Ukraine would be a bad thing.

2022 / Neutral countries
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... -countries

[Ken]

no one has explained why a neutral Ukraine would be a bad thing.

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

Ukraine was neutral. It was in their constitution. And they had treaties with the both the west and Russia that their neutrality and territorial integrity would be guaranteed under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which both the US and Russia were a signatory to. Which guaranteed the sovereignty and respect for the existing borders of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up what was then the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... ar-Weapons.

Despite this Russia has been encroaching on Ukrainian sovereignty and borders for two decades. Intervening in Ukrainian elections, encroaching on eastern Ukraine. And invading and annexing Crimea. And now this current invasion. So neutrality didn't exactly work out for the Ukrainians.

[temporal1]

DanZ:
.. in the face of NATO expansion ..

[Szdfan]

no one has explained why a neutral Ukraine would be a bad thing.

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

Ukraine was neutral. It was in their constitution. And they had treaties with the both the west and Russia that their neutrality and territorial integrity would be guaranteed under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which both the US and Russia were a signatory to. Which guaranteed the sovereignty and respect for the existing borders of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up what was then the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... ar-Weapons.

Despite this Russia has been encroaching on Ukrainian sovereignty and borders for two decades. Intervening in Ukrainian elections, encroaching on eastern Ukraine. And invading and annexing Crimea. And now this current invasion. So neutrality didn't exactly work out for the Ukrainians.

That’s not accurate. The 1994 Budapest Memorandum “assured” but didn’t guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty. Also, the Ukrainian constitution specifically states the country’s ambition to join the European Union and NATO.

The Ukrainians now want their sovereignty guaranteed if they agree to neutrality. I think that’s not unreasonable considering what’s happening right now. The thorny question is who is going to guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty the next time Russia decides to annex a slice of it for itself?

The problem isn’t just Ukraine’s neutrality, the problem is that they have a stronger, aggressive neighbor who has invaded them. How should Ukraine protect itself from Russia?

[Szdfan]

DanZ:
.. in the face of NATO expansion ..

But Ukraine isn’t part of NATO and wasn’t going to be a member anytime soon. All they had were vague assurances.

[nett]

no one has explained why a neutral Ukraine would be a bad thing.

No one has explained why allowing the Ukrainians the freedom and autonomy to control their own fate is a bad thing.

Ukraine was neutral. It was in their constitution. And they had treaties with the both the west and Russia that their neutrality and territorial integrity would be guaranteed under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances which both the US and Russia were a signatory to. Which guaranteed the sovereignty and respect for the existing borders of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up what was then the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... ar-Weapons.

Despite this Russia has been encroaching on Ukrainian sovereignty and borders for two decades. Intervening in Ukrainian elections, encroaching on eastern Ukraine. And invading and annexing Crimea. And now this current invasion. So neutrality didn't exactly work out for the Ukrainians.

That’s not accurate. The 1994 Budapest Memorandum “assured” but didn’t guarantee Ukrainian sovereignty. Also, the Ukrainian constitution specifically states the country’s ambition to join the European Union and NATO.

The Ukrainians now want their sovereignty guaranteed if they agree to neutrality. I think that’s not unreasonable considering what’s happening right now. The thorny question is who is going to guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty the next time Russia decides to annex a slice of it for itself?

The problem isn’t just Ukraine’s neutrality, the problem is that they have a stronger, aggressive neighbor who has invaded them. How should Ukraine protect itself from Russia?

Maybe Russia could guarantee their sovereignty.

Is Ukraine really that much worse off as a Russian client state than as a US (CIA) client state? I don't know anymore. The CIA seems to have lost their operational ability, so being a US client state means you just get a lot of words, and no action, which is exactly what The Ukraine has experienced.