Can the Kingdom of God speak to political matters?

[nett]

Are you saying that these commands apply to all nations at all times? Or particularly to Russia at this time? Would you also apply them to what Americans did to American Indians on our continent? How exactly do you think these passages should be applied to modern nation states?

When we talk about radical Islamic extremism, we are talking precisely about Muslims who take passages like these in their own scriptures and apply them to modern times. Religious extremism is not just for Muslims. Christians can do this too.

I have no idea how to apply them, but they sure do cast into question your moral "true north"

Since you're the one taking such a strong stance, you should really be answering these questions, not asking them.

[Sudsy]

The KOG should stick to being about the KOG not the kingdoms of this world. Those kingdoms will come and go as they always have. The KOG is active now when a believer is all about the KOG and inviting others to be part of that KOG.

I think this all begins when we see things more from an eternal perspective. Being born again is the start. Perhaps we need to check out our own salvation to see what sort of eternal perspective we have.

What goes on between countries in their warring has nothing to do with our role as KOG citizens. When we make it a matter, we lose an eternal perspective. We are to be about Jesus. What He taught and how He came to save us and free us from the troubles of this world. As long as we allow the events of this world to be our main concern, we won't be talking about the KOG and looking for the best ways to bring others to this KOG.

So what is most tragic that is going on right now ? The killing of innocent people in wars and who is to blame or the fact that perhaps most are dying without Christ ?

Well, I guess I'll never understand some of the concerns shared here and I'm running out of time. Anyway, carry on. I'll shut up for awhile.

What are your thoughts about the morality of the two passages above?

Good morning. Wow, another bright and warm spring like day here in the southern tip of Canada.

Back to your question - sorry, can you be more specific on what 'two passages above' you are referring to ? (old age ?)

However, when talking about the morality of unbelievers, I don't believe it is our role to judge them. When Paul was talking to the Corinthian church about their issues inside the church Paul wrote 'What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?' And he goes on to say 'God will judge those outside.' Then looking at what Jesus did He didn't blame pagans for acting like pagans. He did, however, judge the actions of the religious, self-righteous Pharisees. So, I don't believe we should be judging unbelievers such as Putin with regard to any immoral actions of his. But for the grace of God, there go I.

In my flesh, I would want Putin assassinated or kill himself as Hitler did for the harm being done to other humans. In my spirit, I desire Putin to be born again and can pray to that end. Actually we should have empathy for those so enslaved by sin that they not only harm themselves but others.

What is moral within the Church is another story and the bible and the Holy Spirit gives us direction we need for our lives.

[nett]

Back to your question - sorry, can you be more specific on what 'two passages above' you are referring to ? (old age ?)

There has been a lot of talk about how Russia's actions are unjustified. I cannot make any sense of that in a Christian sense. I'm asking how you decide that Russia is wrong here?

[GaryK]

Responding here to avoid derailing the thread where it was posted.

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees.

And yet you've been going on and on about how bad Russia is in this war and how morality says you shouldn't invade other countries, as though the KOG perspective is taking a side in this political war. These types of wars have been going on since nearly the beginning of time.

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Both Russia and Ukraine are fighting in this war and Jesus says His Kingdom doesn't fight like this. Once we have become a part of His Kingdom, we are called to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. Neither side in this war is doing that, for one simple reason...politics and Jesus' Kingdom are completely at odds with each other.

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

I can understand those who say we should simply stay out of political issues and not discuss them at all. But that's not how I see it.

I think Christians can point out immorality in the world around us (and sometimes in our own midst). As a Christian, I cannot participate in adultery, but I can say that it is immoral. As a Christian, I cannot advocate war atrocities, but I can say that they are immoral. Murder is just as immoral when it is done by a soldier without a legitimate cause. Rape is just as immoral when done by a soldier who is invading on behalf of a government.

So far, you are criticizing me for saying Putin should not invade his neighbors. So far, you aren't criticizing others who advocate for Putin and against Ukraine. Are you going to speak to these others as well?

I'm not criticizing you at all for saying Putin should not invade his neighbors. IMO, you jump to way too many conclusions about what people say. I was simply pointing out the inconsistency between saying "I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees" and all the Putin criticizing you've been doing. The first statement is a KOG perspective and the other is an opinion about which side is the bad side - something you have consistently exhorted MN not to do.

I would have no problem with you expressing your political views if it wasn't for all the exhortations you give others when they give political views that you don't agree with.

[HondurasKeiser]

Back to your question - sorry, can you be more specific on what 'two passages above' you are referring to ? (old age ?)

There has been a lot of talk about how Russia's actions are unjustified. I cannot make any sense of that in a Christian sense. I'm asking how you decide that Russia is wrong here?

Perhaps that is the conceit of 2 Kingdom Anabaptism then? The fact that it seems intellectually or theologically or logically incapable of speaking, in any sort of coherent way, to the material conditions of ordinary people that are experiencing the horrors of an invading army; or incapable of enjoining the actions and consciences of the invaders without first requiring that they become Anabaptists?

[Josh]

If morality means anything at all, justifying perpetrators of atrocities is not what morality is about. And it's not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

Let's consider the following passages. Before you trot out a straw man, I'm aware that Russia is not Israel. However, what was the morality of Israel obliterating these nations? While I understand Christians are under a new covenant, I am not aware of any such new instructions for nations going to war.

Do you believe Russia has tried to kill as many civilians as possible? Have they erred on the side of civilian death, or military death (their own or Ukrainian)?

Are you saying that these commands apply to all nations at all times? Or particularly to Russia at this time? Would you also apply them to what Americans did to American Indians on our continent? How exactly do you think these passages should be applied to modern nation states?

When we talk about radical Islamic extremism, we are talking precisely about Muslims who take passages like these in their own scriptures and apply them to modern times. Religious extremism is not just for Muslims. Christians can do this too.

Most Muslims are not extremists; this is another western lie used to stir up hatred and promote the military industrial complex.

Bible verses apply to people. All men need to repent and follow Jesus and turn away from violence.

As far as kings and leaders like Darius, Artexerxes, Cyrus, Constantine, or Putin, God can install them and depose him whenever he wishes. It is very clear in scripture that God uses wars and invasions to judge the nations for not following him. It is crystal clear the New Testament believer must separate himself from these conflicts, yet also acknowledge the world and these wars ultimately are in God’s hands.

The Christian must reject nationalism. I reject American nationalism and Australian nationalism. I’m a Westerner. I reject Western nationalism.

If someone feels they are Ukrainian, they must reject Ukrainian nationalism. (A handful of Ukrainian citizens I know or am acquainted with are pursuing EU citizenship with refugee status and are quite happy to leave one of the most backwards, poorest countries in Europe.)

The Russian believer must reject Russian nationalism. Ultimately, world leaders like Biden, Harris, or Putin need to reject the tools of state power and become New Testament believers. Until they do, they will be used by God to execute his plans for the world - just like Cyrus and Darius.

[Josh]

Back to your question - sorry, can you be more specific on what 'two passages above' you are referring to ? (old age ?)

There has been a lot of talk about how Russia's actions are unjustified. I cannot make any sense of that in a Christian sense. I'm asking how you decide that Russia is wrong here?

Perhaps that is the conceit of 2 Kingdom Anabaptism then? The fact that it seems intellectually or theologically or logically incapable of speaking, in any sort of coherent way, to the material conditions of ordinary people that are experiencing the horrors of an invading army; or incapable of enjoining the actions and consciences of the invaders without first requiring that they become Anabaptists?

What did Jesus say to a people oppressed by an invading Roman army?

[HondurasKeiser]

There has been a lot of talk about how Russia's actions are unjustified. I cannot make any sense of that in a Christian sense. I'm asking how you decide that Russia is wrong here?

Perhaps that is the conceit of 2 Kingdom Anabaptism then? The fact that it seems intellectually or theologically or logically incapable of speaking, in any sort of coherent way, to the material conditions of ordinary people that are experiencing the horrors of an invading army; or incapable of enjoining the actions and consciences of the invaders without first requiring that they become Anabaptists?

What did Jesus say to a people oppressed by an invading Roman army?

But the invading Roman army was nevertheless perpetuating an injustice even if Jesus commanded his followers to turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile and give Caesar his due.

[Josh]

Perhaps that is the conceit of 2 Kingdom Anabaptism then? The fact that it seems intellectually or theologically or logically incapable of speaking, in any sort of coherent way, to the material conditions of ordinary people that are experiencing the horrors of an invading army; or incapable of enjoining the actions and consciences of the invaders without first requiring that they become Anabaptists?

What did Jesus say to a people oppressed by an invading Roman army?

But the invading Roman army was nevertheless perpetuating an injustice even if Jesus commanded his followers to turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile and give Caesar his due.

Yes - yet Jesus didn’t launch a defensive military encounter with the Romans.

He did call the individual Roman soldiers to follow him too and to “do violence to no man”.

I invite anyone to explain to me how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is worse than the Roman Empire.

[HondurasKeiser]

What did Jesus say to a people oppressed by an invading Roman army?

But the invading Roman army was nevertheless perpetuating an injustice even if Jesus commanded his followers to turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile and give Caesar his due.

Yes - yet Jesus didn’t launch a defensive military encounter with the Romans.

He did call the individual Roman soldiers to follow him too and to “do violence to no man”.

I invite anyone to explain to me how Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is worse than the Roman Empire.

I agree with all of these statements, Josh. I can acede to these ideas and also agree that the invasion of another country is a deep injustice. What's more, I can agree that the invaded country is imperfect as well and is probably not wholly innocent in the conflict. In the specific context of Russia-Ukraine that means Putin has committed an injustice in his invasion and Ukraine has acted in brash, unwise ways leading up to the conflict that, while not justifying the escalating unjust actions of Putin, nevertheless render them not exactly innocent babes in the conflict. As Christians we can point all of this out without appearing to cheerlead for a particular side. Some here appear to cheerlead for or at least diminish Ukraine's seeming complicity in this conflict. Others here seem to want to justify Putin's rationalizations for invasion and dismiss any criticism of the invasion as Western propaganda. Both are intellectual ditches that we ought not fall into. Our inability to think as one, to find common ground through the Holy Spirit, to be a unified 'third way' on this issue is troubling to me. Why is that?