Can the Kingdom of God speak to political matters?

[Bootstrap]

About "defending a rapist" - Bootstrap thought that this is wrong. I don't think so.
Jesus defended the adulteress with the argument that "whoever of you is without sin ..."
There's a difference between justifying a rape and defending a rapist.

Defending a rapist during the rape by telling stories about the woman being raped, including stories that are simply not true ...

I don't see how that is equivalent to Jesus defending the woman caught in adultery. I really don't.

[Josh]

Defending a rapist during the rape by telling stories about the woman being raped, including stories that are simply not true ...

I don't see how that is equivalent to Jesus defending the woman caught in adultery. I really don't.

It's utter absurdity to compare the Russia - Ukraine conflict as a "woman being raped". The latter has very clear moral lines; the former doesn't. Bootstrap is trying to make it out to be some bright-line issue when that is simply not the case.

[Bootstrap]

Defending a rapist during the rape by telling stories about the woman being raped, including stories that are simply not true ...

I don't see how that is equivalent to Jesus defending the woman caught in adultery. I really don't.

It's utter absurdity to compare the Russia - Ukraine conflict as a "woman being raped". The latter has very clear moral lines; the former doesn't. Bootstrap is trying to make it out to be some bright-line issue when that is simply not the case.

Killing large numbers of civilians is not a moral issue? Sending your military to invade a country that is not threatening you is not a moral issue? Do you think this war will not result in actual rapes?

If none of these are moral issues, what on earth do you think morality is?

I find it strange that I even have to use the rape analogy to make this point. In most circles I have been in, it's simply obvious that tearing apart the fabric of life in a country that is not threatening you is a moral issue.

And for what it's worth, you are speaking to these moral issues. You are saying they do not exist. To me, that's a lot like watching the rape in progress and insisting that it's not a moral issue either. Why does this woman have a right to say no? Why does this country have a right to exist? In both cases, because it's basic human decency. Morality 101.

Covering up sexual abuse in our circles has seriously damaged the witness of the church. So has justifying military aggression. We cannot do that and be the Kingdom of God.

[Josh]

Defending a rapist during the rape by telling stories about the woman being raped, including stories that are simply not true ...

I don't see how that is equivalent to Jesus defending the woman caught in adultery. I really don't.

It's utter absurdity to compare the Russia - Ukraine conflict as a "woman being raped". The latter has very clear moral lines; the former doesn't. Bootstrap is trying to make it out to be some bright-line issue when that is simply not the case.

Killing large numbers of civilians is not a moral issue? Sending your military to invade a country that is not threatening you is not a moral issue? Do you think this war will not result in actual rapes?

If none of these are moral issues, what on earth do you think morality is?

I find it strange that I even have to use the rape analogy to make this point. In most circles I have been in, it's simply obvious that tearing apart the fabric of life in a country that is not threatening you is a moral issue.

And for what it's worth, you are speaking to these moral issues. You are saying they do not exist. To me, that's a lot like watching the rape in progress and insisting that it's not a moral issue either. Why does this woman have a right to say no? Why does this country have a right to exist? In both cases, because it's basic human decency. Morality 101.

Covering up sexual abuse in our circles has seriously damaged the witness of the church. So has justifying military aggression. We cannot do that and be the Kingdom of God.

You continue to refuse to acknowledge what has been done to Donetsk and Luhansk civilians by the Ukrainian commandos. Until you do, all of your moral posturing rings hollow.

[Bootstrap]

You continue to refuse to acknowledge what has been done to Donetsk and Luhansk civilians by the Ukrainian commandos. Until you do, all of your moral posturing rings hollow.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that all of this actually happened. Are you saying that Russia would then have the right to do what they are doing in Ukraine? And that you believe it is your job, as a representative of the Kingdom of God, to make sure that everyone thinks they have that right?

Without providing evidence that any other authority sees as credible? On its own authority as a neighboring country?

Do you think other countries have this right as well? Do you see where that leads? And do you that you, as a representative of the Kingdom of God, should proclaim this principle?

If morality means anything at all, justifying perpetrators of atrocities is not what morality is about. And it's not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

[nett]

You continue to refuse to acknowledge what has been done to Donetsk and Luhansk civilians by the Ukrainian commandos. Until you do, all of your moral posturing rings hollow.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that all of this actually happened. Are you saying that Russia would then have the right to do what they are doing in Ukraine? And that you believe it is your job, as a representative of the Kingdom of God, to make sure that everyone thinks they have that right?

Without providing evidence that any other authority sees as credible? On its own authority as a neighboring country?

Do you think other countries have this right as well? Do you see where that leads? And do you that you, as a representative of the Kingdom of God, should proclaim this principle?

If morality means anything at all, justifying perpetrators of atrocities is not what morality is about. And it's not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

Let's consider the following passages. Before you trot out a straw man, I'm aware that Russia is not Israel. However, what was the morality of Israel obliterating these nations? While I understand Christians are under a new covenant, I am not aware of any such new instructions for nations going to war.

Do you believe Russia has tried to kill as many civilians as possible? Have they erred on the side of civilian death, or military death (their own or Ukrainian)?

1 Samuel 15

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Numbers 31

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

[Sudsy]

The KOG should stick to being about the KOG not the kingdoms of this world. Those kingdoms will come and go as they always have. The KOG is active now when a believer is all about the KOG and inviting others to be part of that KOG.

I think this all begins when we see things more from an eternal perspective. Being born again is the start. Perhaps we need to check out our own salvation to see what sort of eternal perspective we have.

What goes on between countries in their warring has nothing to do with our role as KOG citizens. When we make it a matter, we lose an eternal perspective. We are to be about Jesus. What He taught and how He came to save us and free us from the troubles of this world. As long as we allow the events of this world to be our main concern, we won't be talking about the KOG and looking for the best ways to bring others to this KOG.

So what is most tragic that is going on right now ? The killing of innocent people in wars and who is to blame or the fact that perhaps most are dying without Christ ?

Well, I guess I'll never understand some of the concerns shared here and I'm running out of time. Anyway, carry on. I'll shut up for awhile.

[nett]

The KOG should stick to being about the KOG not the kingdoms of this world. Those kingdoms will come and go as they always have. The KOG is active now when a believer is all about the KOG and inviting others to be part of that KOG.

I think this all begins when we see things more from an eternal perspective. Being born again is the start. Perhaps we need to check out our own salvation to see what sort of eternal perspective we have.

What goes on between countries in their warring has nothing to do with our role as KOG citizens. When we make it a matter, we lose an eternal perspective. We are to be about Jesus. What He taught and how He came to save us and free us from the troubles of this world. As long as we allow the events of this world to be our main concern, we won't be talking about the KOG and looking for the best ways to bring others to this KOG.

So what is most tragic that is going on right now ? The killing of innocent people in wars and who is to blame or the fact that perhaps most are dying without Christ ?

Well, I guess I'll never understand some of the concerns shared here and I'm running out of time. Anyway, carry on. I'll shut up for awhile.

What are your thoughts about the morality of the two passages above?

[Bootstrap]

If morality means anything at all, justifying perpetrators of atrocities is not what morality is about. And it's not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

Let's consider the following passages. Before you trot out a straw man, I'm aware that Russia is not Israel. However, what was the morality of Israel obliterating these nations? While I understand Christians are under a new covenant, I am not aware of any such new instructions for nations going to war.

Do you believe Russia has tried to kill as many civilians as possible? Have they erred on the side of civilian death, or military death (their own or Ukrainian)?

Are you saying that these commands apply to all nations at all times? Or particularly to Russia at this time? Would you also apply them to what Americans did to American Indians on our continent? How exactly do you think these passages should be applied to modern nation states?

When we talk about radical Islamic extremism, we are talking precisely about Muslims who take passages like these in their own scriptures and apply them to modern times. Religious extremism is not just for Muslims. Christians can do this too.

[Bootstrap]

Responding here to avoid derailing the thread where it was posted.

I don't have any particular advice for the nations of the world on how to handle this. I don't see great answers except for prayer and caring for the refugees.

And yet you've been going on and on about how bad Russia is in this war and how morality says you shouldn't invade other countries, as though the KOG perspective is taking a side in this political war. These types of wars have been going on since nearly the beginning of time.

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Both Russia and Ukraine are fighting in this war and Jesus says His Kingdom doesn't fight like this. Once we have become a part of His Kingdom, we are called to love our enemies and to do good to those who hate us. Neither side in this war is doing that, for one simple reason...politics and Jesus' Kingdom are completely at odds with each other.

I suppose this makes me a Russian propagandist now as well...

I can understand those who say we should simply stay out of political issues and not discuss them at all. But that's not how I see it.

I think Christians can point out immorality in the world around us (and sometimes in our own midst). As a Christian, I cannot participate in adultery, but I can say that it is immoral. As a Christian, I cannot advocate war atrocities, but I can say that they are immoral. Murder is just as immoral when it is done by a soldier without a legitimate cause. Rape is just as immoral when done by a soldier who is invading on behalf of a government.

So far, you are criticizing me for saying Putin should not invade his neighbors. So far, you aren't criticizing others who advocate for Putin and against Ukraine. Are you going to speak to these others as well?