Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[Ken]

Which argument are you making? Freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

My point of all of those examples was to illustrate that public school teachers are most certainly not free to interject religion into the classroom.

I don't want teachers to interject their faith in teachings, but I do expect them to live out their faith in life and daily interactions with others. This is freedom of speech and religion both working together.

I personally find Islam distasteful and I believe it to be in conflict with my faith and much of what I believe. I tend to believe it is a plague on our world as evidenced by the fact that the borders of the Islamic world, everywhere they occur, seem to be in constant conflict with their neighbors and other faiths whether we are talking about Nigeria in the west all the way to the Philippines in the east and everywhere in between. Islamic extremism is a problem everywhere in the Muslim world. And I think the teachings and practice of Islam are in conflict with the teachings of Jesus in many ways, especially when it comes to violence and how we treat others, how we treat women, and so forth. And I think that it is no coincidence that very little of value other than oil comes out of the Muslim world. Where are the great scientists or inventors or artists or universities in the Muslim world? How many Noble Prizes in anything come out of Saudi Arabia for example?

That said, I have had numerous Muslim students in my classes over the years and several this year. And I strictly keep these opinions on this topic to my self in all my interactions with these students and everyone else. Because it is NOT my place as a public school teacher to let any of these deeply held religious beliefs enter into my classroom in any way. It is not my place to denigrate their faith or question it in any way, much as I might believe to the contrary. I am not free to express my opinions no matter how much I might believe them. It is only my place to make them welcome in my classroom and make sure that it is a safe place for them to learn and thrive on an equal basis with all my other students of diverse faiths and backgrounds. And frankly, they probably get plenty of negative attention for being Muslim in every other walk of life so they don't need it from me anyway.

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs. And trust me these students already get get plenty of that same disapproval in the outside world as well. The only role of the teacher is to make sure that their classroom is a safe and supportive place for them to learn and thrive on a equal basis with all the other diverse students in the class. For some of them the school and classroom might be the ONLY safe space they have in their lives. Just like Muslim students, they go through life getting constant negative attention and even threats from others. They don't need it in the classroom too.

[Josh]

Muslim contributions to science?

Algebra comes to mind. Or accepting the number zero

[Heirbyadoption]

Which argument are you making? Freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

My point of all of those examples was to illustrate that public school teachers are most certainly not free to interject religion into the classroom.

I don't want teachers to interject their faith in teachings, but I do expect them to live out their faith in life and daily interactions with others. This is freedom of speech and religion both working together.

I personally find Islam distasteful and I believe it to be in conflict with my faith and much of what I believe. I tend to believe it is a plague on our world as evidenced by the fact that the borders of the Islamic world, everywhere they occur, seem to be in constant conflict with their neighbors and other faiths whether we are talking about Nigeria in the west all the way to the Philippines in the east and everywhere in between. Islamic extremism is a problem everywhere in the Muslim world. And I think the teachings and practice of Islam are in conflict with the teachings of Jesus in many ways, especially when it comes to violence and how we treat others, how we treat women, and so forth. And I think that it is no coincidence that very little of value other than oil comes out of the Muslim world. Where are the great scientists or inventors or artists or universities in the Muslim world? How many Noble Prizes in anything come out of Saudi Arabia for example?

That said, I have had numerous Muslim students in my classes over the years and several this year. And I strictly keep these opinions on this topic to my self in all my interactions with these students and everyone else. Because it is NOT my place as a public school teacher to let any of these deeply held religious beliefs enter into my classroom in any way. It is not my place to denigrate their faith or question it in any way, much as I might believe to the contrary. I am not free to express my opinions no matter how much I might believe them. It is only my place to make them welcome in my classroom and make sure that it is a safe place for them to learn and thrive on an equal basis with all my other students of diverse faiths and backgrounds. And frankly, they probably get plenty of negative attention for being Muslim in every other walk of life so they don't need it from me anyway.

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs. And trust me these students already get get plenty of that same disapproval in the outside world as well. The only role of the teacher is to make sure that their classroom is a safe and supportive place for them to learn and thrive on a equal basis with all the other diverse students in the class. For some of them the school and classroom might be the ONLY safe space they have in their lives. Just like Muslim students, they go through life getting constant negative attention and even threats from others. They don't need it in the classroom too.

I confess I've been somewhat sympathetic to your perspective thus far, and the concept of a teacher being an extension of the state while working in the employ of the state. Having said that, and reading your last post, however, isn't the logic here the same as the soldier who claims exemption of guilt from some act on the basis that he was simply following the orders of (or acting as an extension of) his commanding officer or higher authority who commanded him to perform the action in question? At some point, that soldier is personally accountable because he was an individual with free will to make moral choices and actions regardless of any conflict with whatever entity he found himself under...

I do understand that the state regulates what a teacher may and may not teach, but if the teacher (as a free moral agent and especially as a Christian) finds a conflict between their obligations to the state and to their faith when it comes to gender issues and identity address, it should be no surprise to see them place their faith first and not engage in a dishonest act of identifying a student as other than they are. Should they do so, of course there may be consequences from the state, and it might be best for them to find another occupational venue which allows for their convictions, but from our birds eye view, we still do well to recognize/sympathize with the Christian teacher's higher allegiance rather than primarily condemning them for transgressing the dictates of the state. It is an age old conflict that should surprise nobody, really. Christians have simply had the privilege of operating in a culture that has historically been open to Judeo-Christian expressions of faith, and now must deal with the reality that said culture is shifting away from that tolerance and there will be consequences for the intolerant aspects of our faith.

[Robert]

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs.

I think you are conflating this and the issue at hand.

The teacher is being told to use pronouns and nicknames a child has picked for themselves. The teacher says no, she also says there is a religious reason why she will not, since some are picking opposite gender pronouns for themselves. I really do not see this as a religious issue, but understand the person's faith is making them resistant to accepting the gender fluid culture that she is facing.

What is a school board told a conservative Mennonite teacher she could not wear her veil in school or a Muslim woman she could not wear her Hajab (sp)? These would be freedom of religion issues.

Telling a teacher she must use whatever pronoun a child decides they want that day removes the authority of the teacher and makes the child the authority. While that is not unconstitutional, forcing her to use certain words may be.

A person can choose a pronoun or name and ask to be called that. I can ask to be called "All time ruler of space and time," yet I cannot compel anyone to do so. Why should a teacher be forced to do so? I do see this as a freedom of speech issue. Her religion is why, but it does not matter why. One should not be compelled to speech. If we are, will we soon start calling our President "Dear Leader?"

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion.

[Heirbyadoption]

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs.

Robert illustrates some of what I'm perhaps confusingly trying to express, as he shares the above quote from you, Ken. It might be inversely said that it is the role of Christians (even if they work as teachers under the state) to engage biological and identity issues with honesty and integrity, just as they would any other issue, regardless of the consequences.

Further, conjunctively, addressing a child by a preferred nickname is one thing; addressing a child (or an adult) by an identity that distinctly endorses their preference to be identified as a different gender than that which God has given them, is another animal altogether.

[Ken]

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs.

I think you are conflating this and the issue at hand.

The teacher is being told to use pronouns and nicknames a child has picked for themselves. The teacher says no, she also says there is a religious reason why she will not, since some are picking opposite gender pronouns for themselves. I really do not see this as a religious issue, but understand the person's faith is making them resistant to accepting the gender fluid culture that she is facing.

What is a school board told a conservative Mennonite teacher she could not wear her veil in school or a Muslim woman she could not wear her Hajab (sp)? These would be freedom of religion issues.

Telling a teacher she must use whatever pronoun a child decides they want that day removes the authority of the teacher and makes the child the authority. While that is not unconstitutional, forcing her to use certain words may be.

A person can choose a pronoun or name and ask to be called that. I can ask to be called "All time ruler of space and time," yet I cannot compel anyone to do so. Why should a teacher be forced to do so? I do see this as a freedom of speech issue. Her religion is why, but it does not matter why. One should not be compelled to speech. If we are, will we soon start calling our President "Dear Leader?"

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion.

I think what this issue really comes down to is whether the teacher's primary obligation is to her personal religious beliefs (whatever they may be) or to the welfare and safety of the children in her care when those two come into conflict. As they are apparently in conflict in this case.

I tend to believe that the primary obligation of public school teachers (as a public servant and agent of the state) is to the welfare and safety and well being of the children in her care. All of them, equally. That is what the school system that hires her expects, and what the parents who pay her salary expect. And the vast vast majority of teachers who come from every walk of life and every faith including conservative Christianity find no conflict between their faith and duties. We are talking about an infinitesimally small percentage who generate these sorts of conflicts out of the millions of teachers in the US.

And yes, this is about the welfare of children. Whether or not you agree or approve of LGBT children, they do exist. And how adults and authority figures like teachers treat them does impact their life and even their safety. Teachers set the tone in the classroom and if the tone is one of disapproval or denial then that can have major impacts on the child. It encourages bullying, for example, and for other children to follow her lead. Children can be exceedingly cruel, especially if they feel empowered to do so. And it is malpractice of the highest order for teachers to encourage it rather than squelch it.

[Ken]

I see the situation with LGBT students in a classroom exactly the same way. It is not the role or right of teachers to question, denigrate, or deny their identity no matter how much the teacher might disapprove or believe their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs.

Robert illustrates some of what I'm perhaps confusingly trying to express, as he shares the above quote from you, Ken. It might be inversely said that it is the role of Christians (even if they work as teachers under the state) to engage biological and identity issues with honesty and integrity, just as they would any other issue, regardless of the consequences.

Further, conjunctively, addressing a child by a preferred nickname is one thing; addressing a child (or an adult) by an identity that distinctly endorses their preference to be identified as a different gender than that which God has given them, is another animal altogether.

The whole point of the discussion is that it isn't the role of the teacher to make that judgement. That is for the parents and student to decide. We are talking about public schools, not private religious schools.

And if you think this sort of thing is a trivial or consequence-free act on the part of the teacher then you are naïve about how classrooms operate. Students follow the lead of their teacher and this sort of denial or disrespect on the part of the teacher provides a flashing green light to classroom bullies who are going to take it a lot lot further in a lot of creatively cruel ways. Parents don't send their children to school to be bullied, harassed, and disrespected. And will not stand for it if teachers encourage it through their conduct. Nor should they.

[nett]

I think what this issue really comes down to is whether the teacher's primary obligation is to her personal religious beliefs (whatever they may be) or to the welfare and safety of the children in her care when those two come into conflict. As they are apparently in conflict in this case.

I tend to believe that the primary obligation of public school teachers (as a public servant and agent of the state) is to the welfare and safety and well being of the children in her care. All of them, equally. That is what the school system that hires her expects, and what the parents who pay her salary expect. And the vast vast majority of teachers who come from every walk of life and every faith including conservative Christianity find no conflict between their faith and duties. We are talking about an infinitesimally small percentage who generate these sorts of conflicts out of the millions of teachers in the US.

And yes, this is about the welfare of children. Whether or not you agree or approve of LGBT children, they do exist. And how adults and authority figures like teachers treat them does impact their life and even their safety. Teachers set the tone in the classroom and if the tone is one of disapproval or denial then that can have major impacts on the child. It encourages bullying, for example, and for other children to follow her lead. Children can be exceedingly cruel, especially if they feel empowered to do so. And it is malpractice of the highest order for teachers to encourage it rather than squelch it.

I think what it comes down to is really the mainstream, orthodox consensus around pronoun use and gender identity. Teachers are excepted to not harm children. The authority on what constitutes harm would be mainstream early childhood psychologist via their publications. The consensus of this group is that not respecting a child's desired pronouns, and not acknowledging their desired identity cause harm.

It doesn't really matter whether this belief is based in what the teacher feels to be valid science or research, or whether it's politically motivated. The consensus is what it is, and I believe a teacher has no choice but to respect that consensus. The alternative would be every teacher operating completely independently, and making up their own standards of harm and care. That would probably make everything worse.

A teacher, or medical caregiver who acknowledges the natural truth about gender is in an impossible situation. By submitting their behavior to the consensus, they are doing obvious harm to a child. Gender confusion treats itself in 95+% of cases where children are not allowed to transition. so it's rather obvious that their delusions should not be affirmed. The standard of care does not involve confirming delusional thinking in treating any other psychiatric disorder, in fact CBT and DBT are both therapeutic approaches to reality-orient and stop the delusional thought processes.

However, the ruling consensus has decided otherwise, so there is no room for healthy care in these cases.
It's best to withdraw from the evil institution that is trying to destroy children, and instead participate in institutions that can actually help them.

[temporal1]

Robert illustrates some of what I'm perhaps confusingly trying to express, as he shares the above quote from you, Ken. It might be inversely said that it is the role of Christians (even if they work as teachers under the state) to engage biological and identity issues with honesty and integrity,
just as they would any other issue, regardless of the consequences.

Further, conjunctively, addressing a child by a preferred nickname is one thing; addressing a child (or an adult) by an identity that distinctly endorses their preference to be identified as a different gender than that which God has given them, is another animal altogether.

i appreciate this, with one note.
public schools are no longer interested in presenting any issue/topic/subject with honesty and integrity.
everything, every breath, every word, every choice, hinges on touting the lib ideology. it’s in classrooms, in hallways, no escape.
conformity is encouraged, rewarded. every child a proud SJW!

some areas may not be as flagrant as others. i don’t know. my life is pretty much across 3 blue states. not a pretty picture.

Homeschooling ..
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4161

[Robert]

Whether or not you agree or approve of LGBT children, they do exist.

I see no reason for LGB to be addressed at school for CHILDREN. Most children should not be engaging in sexual activity. I could care less what they are attracted to, they should not be encouraged to engage in any sexual activity at a young age. I see this as grooming and child abuse.

T is a child deciding they are a different gender then their biology. They are free to do so, but how can they force everyone else to play along when this may be from abuse, or mental dysfunction also? Should we support the results of abuse and validate the abuse that caused the child to desire to be someone they are not?

We do not let children drive, buy alcohol, cigarettes and many other things, but we will let them make life changing modifications to their bodies because they "feel" different then force a teacher to accept it when they see it differently?