Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

Don Quixotes,
Please point to 1 person on this forum, or any shared quote, that champions Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
i believe i’ve read every post, if not, the majority, i’m not seeing it.

i see numerous accusations of it.

[Josh]

The United States can and has done plenty of wrong. As I have pointed out with the Iraq war. But justifying a military invasion by claiming that the excuses used to invade are valid ... no thanks. Russia has no valid justification for this invasion. And it's weird to see nonresistant Mennonites championing the rightness of his cause.

Then again, some nonresistent Mennonites championed Hitler's cause. So maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. But maybe that's a mistake we should not repeat?

I see some truth here, why is it so hard to condemn war. Why is it so easy to justify it. How much greater would the abandonment of nonresistance be if the invasion was on US shores. Why the readiness to adopt belief in the efficacy of war.

Of course Mennonites such as myself condemn war. Since I’m an American in America, I’m condemning my own country’s involvement in war. It’s not good. The bellicose rhetoric isn’t good. Supplying and shipping arms isn’t good.

I spoke to a Russian man I ran into by chance yesterday who coincidentally also happened to be Anabaptist. He also condemned warfare on the Russian side. We then talked about how to live as believers during a time of rising inflation and governments with warmonger rhetoric or actions. (He advised my wife to make and store lots of noodles.)

I’m dismayed to see nonresistance Mennonites effectively supporting one side of this conflict. It is particularly concerning when that side has battalions waving neo-Nazi flags around. That’s a mistake we shouldn’t repeat.

Globally, world opinion is not on the side of America. Someone I know is in Zimbabwe and he has been surprised to find the talk on the street is well informed but almost entirely pro-Russian. Very few people agree with the West’s side or story.

A lot of information is flowing out via telegram, bypassing the biased news media. Telegram is controlled by an anti-Putin Russian man who is exiled from Russia. Can’t blame bias there.

[temporal1]

Pray for Putin+Zelensky to come to terms.
Before outsiders can make it worse, and much-much worse is the goal.

The NYT is now promoting the EU as a super power, salivating as they go.

“Russian Invasion of Ukraine Awakens Europe”
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/13/brie ... power.html

.. Another superpower
Over the longer run, a revitalized Europe could help renew a wounded global order led by a democratic West.

One way this could play out is through Europe more aggressively protecting itself. That could help free up American resources now devoted to European security, which would in turn allow the U.S. to embark on a long-promised refocus on Asia to help counter China. (White House officials say the war has already persuaded some Asian governments to work more closely with the West to defend democracy, my colleagues Michael Crowley and Edward Wong reported.)

As the world’s second-largest economy, Europe could also leverage its wealth to counter threats to itself or to democracy abroad — with sanctions, financial investments and trade policy.

The E.U. has played a role in expanding a global democratic order before. After the Soviet Union’s fall in 1991, the E.U.’s embrace of Eastern European countries empowered new democracies, from Bulgaria to Lithuania. That “was one of the biggest democracy-promotion projects in recent history,” Timothy Garton Ash, a historian at the University of Oxford, told me.

The future is not as simple as a new Cold War between democracies and autocracies. India, the world’s most populous democracy, is friendly with Russia and has refused to condemn Putin’s war in Ukraine. The U.S. is dealing with its own illiberal movement. Inside Europe, democratic institutions have deteriorated in Poland and more severely in Hungary. “There are serious internal problems within Europe,” said Mujtaba Rahman, an analyst at the Eurasia Group.

A big unanswered question remains:
Will Europe’s new assertiveness last? Europeans are facing a refugee crisis and rising food and gas prices as a result of the war and the sanctions imposed on Russia. That could fuel a backlash against politicians who have aggressively backed Ukraine — and cut short the path that Europe is on now.

Beware: This is all media “us versus them” rhetoric on a global scale, AND internally.
(Just remember Trudeau’s recent vicious “us versus them” response to his own unarmed countrymen.) It’s on the table.

Media-led tribalism is something to run away from, not embrace. It’s primitive. Cheap. Profitable. $$$$

Successful real life is complex+nuanced, and beautiful. It’s worth the extra effort.

[Soloist]

During the Cold War, NATO had zero military operations. Not one. If we want to see both sides of the NATO argument, it's really worth looking at why Europe feels it needs to be protected from Russia. And the history of the 20th century makes that very clear.

I suspect you really don't know what NATO did during the cold war. My father served during the cold war and there was quite a few training exercises staged. Not to mention the ballistic missile subs we had off of the coast of Russia.

Also, Russia and NATO never engaged in offensive tactics against each other but I'm sure you would say Russia engaged in several wars (which they did) some of those were because of us and others we *countered* Soviet aggression.

And before you go and say all of NATO's exercises were defensive in nature, I suggest you brush up on training exercises with large amounts of troops right on the border and why we did them like Russia did.

[temporal1]

I suspect you really don't know what NATO did during the cold war. My father served during the cold war and there was quite a few training exercises staged. Not to mention the ballistic missile subs we had off of the coast of Russia.

Also, Russia and NATO never engaged in offensive tactics against each other but I'm sure you would say Russia engaged in several wars (which they did) some of those were because of us and others we *countered* Soviet aggression.

And before you go and say all of NATO's exercises were defensive in nature, I suggest you brush up on training exercises with large amounts of troops right on the border and why we did them like Russia did.

Soloist,
This is from Page 15. Would you share your opinion?

[An ESL personal opinion from UK: (not Anabaptist)]

.. For the past number of yrs NATO are playing war games not far from the Russian border.
They harass Russia on almost every issue. NATO somewhat operate out of the Ukraine.
The sutituation is like Russia, Cuba, America in 60's.

Pr Putin was probably better of saying he is invading Ukraine and will stay until NATO gets far away as possible from the Russian border. NATO are basically USING Ukraine etc to START a War with Russia.

Few yrs ago Pr Obama and David Cameroon harassed Russia when they held the Winter Olympics, protesting because Pr Putin and Russia wouldn't hand children over to ... There were other incidents of harassment over the yrs.

NATO have stirred the pot between Ukraine and Russia for years.
China prob realise they will be next and may join Russia V NATO....

NATO are pretending they are on the outside, but are openly supplying Ukraine with weapons which could make them legit targets by thousands of sleeper Russians and Chinese Army agents throughout Europe.
The EU haven't a clue what they are getting themselves into.

Six weeks ago Boris Johnsons job was on the line because of the people and vaccines, he went over to Russian border and everything has kicked off.
Many people are saying Russia are not as quilty as media are saying they are.
America are only .. day out of Afganastan and are looking to help start a War in Europe.

[Soloist]

Soloist,
This is from Page 15. Would you share your opinion?

[An ESL personal opinion from UK: (not Anabaptist)]

.. For the past number of yrs NATO are playing war games not far from the Russian border.
They harass Russia on almost every issue. NATO somewhat operate out of the Ukraine.
The sutituation is like Russia, Cuba, America in 60's.

Pr Putin was probably better of saying he is invading Ukraine and will stay until NATO gets far away as possible from the Russian border. NATO are basically USING Ukraine etc to START a War with Russia.

Few yrs ago Pr Obama and David Cameroon harassed Russia when they held the Winter Olympics, protesting because Pr Putin and Russia wouldn't hand children over to ... There were other incidents of harassment over the yrs.

NATO have stirred the pot between Ukraine and Russia for years.
China prob realise they will be next and may join Russia V NATO....

NATO are pretending they are on the outside, but are openly supplying Ukraine with weapons which could make them legit targets by thousands of sleeper Russians and Chinese Army agents throughout Europe.
The EU haven't a clue what they are getting themselves into.

Six weeks ago Boris Johnsons job was on the line because of the people and vaccines, he went over to Russian border and everything has kicked off.
Many people are saying Russia are not as quilty as media are saying they are.
America are only .. day out of Afganastan and are looking to help start a War in Europe.

I agree we conduct war games and NATO and Russia have long played games with each other but my commenting is remaining only that. I will not comment on the rest.

[nett]

Naftali Bennett advised Zelenksyy that if he cares about the well being of his people, the best course of action is to surrender.

Why is no one acknowledging this? Does it make everyone feel good to make pompous statements about Russia's universal evil, while Zelenskyy could stop the bloodshed at any time? The fastest path to peace here is surrender.

[temporal1]

ok. thanks.
i have no idea about what was quoted. (not all of it.) it was a response soon following the initial invasion.
it surprised me, and he is much closer to the situation.

for decades in my life, i suppose i had what nett might describe as a boyscoutish view of the mainstream. eventually, so many lies, biases, manipulation revealed. i appreciate reading from real people on the ground in other countries. of course it’s not the word of God! neither are official media, or White House press releases. i think, it’s well to consider alternate views, to add to the overall mix.

in the last 20 years or so, it dawned on me, after living thru the Cold War, Vietnam days, and so much more, the U.S. has been far more damaged by poor policies coming out of Congress than ANY external entity. mainstream media assists. hollywood assists. the DOE assists. it’s a wonder there are any nonconforming opinions.

i can’t buy simplistic emotional stories that any are all good or all bad. i see that’s what sells. $$$$

[nett]

ok. thanks.
i have no idea about what was quoted. (not all of it.) it was a response soon following the initial invasion.
it surprised me, and he is much closer to the situation.

for decades in my life, i suppose i had what nett might describe as a boyscoutish view of the mainstream. eventually, so many lies, biases, manipulation revealed. i appreciate reading from real people on the ground in other countries. of course it’s not the word of God! neither are official media, or White House press releases. i think, it’s well to consider alternate views, to add to the overall mix.

in the last 20 years or so, it dawned on me, after living thru the Cold War, Vietnam days, and so much more, the U.S. has been far more damaged by poor policies coming out of Congress than ANY external entity. mainstream media assists. hollywood assists. the DOE assists. it’s a wonder there are any nonconforming opinions.

i can’t buy simplistic emotional stories that any are all good or all bad. i see that’s what sells. $$$$

Basically everything I believed about western benevolence has been found to be a lie, and I was duped into supporting death and destruction that I am now deeply sorrowful for.

It's not a good feeling to realize you supported policies like "bomb a little and see what happens"

[temporal1]

Naftali Bennett advised Zelenksyy that if he cares about the well being of his people, the best course of action is to surrender.

Why is no one acknowledging this?
Does it make everyone feel good to make pompous statements about Russia's universal evil, while Zelenskyy could stop the bloodshed at any time? The fastest path to peace here is surrender.

i posted a short video about NB working as mediator on Page 41, and i just saw an article about his counsel.
i’m hoping for a better article, this one is not well written, seems to contradict itself.

i’m with you about hoping for quick resolution, i haven’t seen language that would use the word, “surrender.”
i believe agreement could be reached that would be acceptable to both parties - outside media is NOT interested, outside politicians want to milk disaster for as long as possible.

https://www.axios.com/russia-war-israel ... 2f5a1.html

i believe Putin+Zelensky are working on it, privately. That means, we must wait. Media circus HATES that.