Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

1. Looking back, how should the U.S. have responded to Vietnam, or was the response the “right one and the only right one?”
The more i think about it, the more this reminds of Vietnam. There are forum members who were drafted.

It seems that JFK (a Democrat) getting us involved in Vietnam was a disaster. I wonder how life would have been different if Nixon had been elected (most historians agree that JFK won due to widespread vote fraud in Chicago). Nixon got us out of the war once he was finally in office. Nixon approached China with an attitude of peace and negotiation instead of beating the war drums.

2. If Russia had made this move on Ukraine when DJT was POTUS, what?? How would legacy Congress and their media have responded?
(Presumably, Orange Man Bad/Putin good, 100% DJT’s fault; the DOE would order Russian language classes for gov schools.)
Based on the pandemic response, and 4 years prior. “Anything” but Trump.

Russia tried making moves when Trump was President - Trump used diplomacy and negotiation to prevent conflicts. Under Trump, America entered no new wars, unlike what has happened when Democrats are in office. (And RINOs too like George Bush who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan.)

I am not a pro-Trump person, but there is a very solid anti-war case to be made for Trump's presidency.

[Bootstrap]

I think the Kingdom of God stands with refugees and victims of warfare. I don't think it sides with the aggressor.

Of course. But the Kingdom of God also doesn't side with the Empire of America, the Empire of the West, or any of the military adventures we get up to. So far I see a lot of calls for America to go to war. Since I'm an American and live in America, it is my duty to speak out against that.

In this thread, I see nobody saying America should go to war.

Ukraine is about Ukraine. And 2 million refugees. And war atrocities on Ukranian soil. Some of us are saying that's really, really bad. There are several people on this thread that just can't bring themselves to say that, clearly, as though that's one of the more important aspects of this conflict.

I see quite a few people saying Ukraine has a right to exist and Putin should not be committing war atrocities. So far, you seem to be pushing back on both of those statements, implying that Ukraine has no right to exist and that Putin had every right to invade, saying we should discuss some other conflict instead, making inaccurate claims about people who are grieving Ukraine.

That's not neutral behavior. That's siding with Putin.

[Bootstrap]

1. Looking back, how should the U.S. have responded to Vietnam, or was the response the “right one and the only right one?”

The Gulf of Tonkin Massacre was a fiction. Like so many claims Putin made about Ukraine. America committed terrible atrocities in Vietnam.

If invading Vietman was clearly wrong, as we agree, so was invading Ukraine. Russia is committing terrible atrocities there.

War atrocities are a bad thing. It's not complicated.

[Josh]

I see quite a few people saying Ukraine has a right to exist

As a kingdom Christian, I'm not sure why we should be so concerned with the concept of a "sovereign nation", national borders, etc. (You sure don't seem to think national borders should matter much when it involves illegal immigrants coming to America, etc.) So why are Ukraine's borders so important but America's are not?

and Putin should not be committing war atrocities. So far, you seem to be pushing back on both of those statements, implying that Ukraine has no right to exist and that Putin had every right to invade, saying we should discuss some other conflict instead, making inaccurate claims about people who are grieving Ukraine.

Nobody should be commiting war atrocities on either side, but as far as I can tell, nationalists paramilitary forces have been doing so for years in the west. I'd like to see you speak up about that instead of continuing to deny, deny, deny.

We're Americans, not Russians (for the most part) here on this forum. We need to call out the problems we see in our own people and nation, not worry about what is going on in the eastern hemisphere.

If you do want to talk about the other hemisphere, Boot, why haven't you been talking about the atrocities in Palestine, Yemen, and Somalia? The body counts and atrocities are worse than what Russia is accused of doing in Ukraine. When I see Russia get singled out, what I see is The Empire at work, minimising its own atrocities in a place like Yemen, but telling us we all need to think of Russia as the "bad guy" and the "enemy".

I see a country where people splashed blue and yellow paint at the Russian club in New York City. The people going there aren't Russian government agents, it's just an ethnic Russian club. That's not good. I see people saying stuff like this:



Boot, this isn't good. The nationalistic fervor being whipped out of the West+Ukraine against Russia and the Russian people isn't good. You need to stop acting like it's OK, because it's not.

[temporal1]

1. Looking back, how should the U.S. have responded to Vietnam, or was the response the “right one and the only right one?”

The Gulf of Tonkin Massacre was a fiction. Like so many claims Putin made about Ukraine. America committed terrible atrocities in Vietnam.

If invading Vietman was clearly wrong, as we agree, so was invading Ukraine. Russia is committing terrible atrocities there.

War atrocities are a bad thing. It's not complicated.

i have not heard one person, or one report, of anyone suggesting Putin was right, or even justified. That’s a Don Quixote thing.
Some suggest there is more than the one response: Hit him harder, and don’t let up.

1. Looking back, how should the U.S. have responded to Vietnam, or was the response the “right one and the only right one?”
The more i think about it, the more this reminds of Vietnam. There are forum members who were drafted.

It seems that JFK (a Democrat) getting us involved in Vietnam was a disaster. I wonder how life would have been different if Nixon had been elected (most historians agree that JFK won due to widespread vote fraud in Chicago). Nixon got us out of the war once he was finally in office. Nixon approached China with an attitude of peace and negotiation instead of beating the war drums.

2. If Russia had made this move on Ukraine when DJT was POTUS, what?? How would legacy Congress and their media have responded?
(Presumably, Orange Man Bad/Putin good, 100% DJT’s fault; the DOE would order Russian language classes for gov schools.)
Based on the pandemic response, and 4 years prior. “Anything” but Trump.

Russia tried making moves when Trump was President - Trump used diplomacy and negotiation to prevent conflicts. Under Trump, America entered no new wars, unlike what has happened when Democrats are in office. (And RINOs too like George Bush who got us into Iraq and Afghanistan.)

I am not a pro-Trump person, but there is a very solid anti-war case to be made for Trump's presidency.

Thanks. i admit surprise Trump doesn’t get more credit for anti-war results - on this forum. My guess would have been that would have been a serious priority here.

For myself, he was a real surprise that way. i pretty well guessed all the fear-mongering about him before election was true.
i was pleasantly surprised. before elected, i knew almost nothing about him. my hunch was he wasn’t at all serious about being president. i was wrong.

But, they got rid of him, now, “back to our regular programming.” “Normal” U.S. politics. That so many yearned for.

[Bootstrap]

i have not heard one person, or one report, of anyone suggesting Putin was right, or even justified.

Exercise for the reader. Go back through this thread, write down:

1. Justifications given for Putin's actions. That's called justifying military aggression.
2. People pushing back on sympathy for the victims of this war, minimizing or denying it.

See if the people who are doing these things are expressing real sympathy for the victims of this war. See if they themselves are clearly denouncing the atrocities being committed in Ukraine. (Some people are expressing both of these while also suggesting that Putin has some justification. I'm not making claims about who is who.)

To use the rape analogy, this is like people watching a rape in action and thinking of all the things the woman might have done to provoke it, asking why people aren't expressing their concern about some other rape instead, telling us negative stories about the woman, many of which are clearly untrue, accusing people who express sympathy for the woman of various things.

This is a real war, folks. Real people are dying and losing everything they have.

[Bootstrap]

I see a country where people splashed blue and yellow paint at the Russian club in New York City. The people going there aren't Russian government agents, it's just an ethnic Russian club. That's not good.

I agree. I also see Russian tea houses and restaurants and clubs all around the country denouncing Putin's actions and expressing sympathy with Ukraine. I think that's good.

At a recent hackathon in the Bible translation world, Ukranians, Georgians, and Russians decided they wanted to form one team together. I think that's good. Russians I know who work in Bible translation are not siding with Putin.

I bet there are plenty of Russians who are contributing to Ukranian refugees. I think that's good.

[temporal1]

i have not heard one person, or one report, of anyone suggesting Putin was right, or even justified.

Exercise for the reader. Go back through this thread, write down:

1. Justifications given for Putin's actions. That's called justifying military aggression.
2. People pushing back on sympathy for the victims of this war, minimizing or denying it.

See if the people who are doing these things are expressing real sympathy for the victims of this war. See if they themselves are clearly denouncing the atrocities being committed in Ukraine. (Some people are expressing both of these while also suggesting that Putin has some justification. I'm not making claims about who is who.)

To use the rape analogy, this is like people watching a rape in action and thinking of all the things the woman might have done to provoke it, asking why people aren't expressing their concern about some other rape instead, telling us negative stories about the woman, many of which are clearly untrue, accusing people who express sympathy for the woman of various things.

This is a real war, folks. Real people are dying and losing everything they have.

You are making your view crystal-clear. You have a right to your view.
i don’t read others’ responses as you do. i don’t accept your rape analogy as a very good one. It’s not completely off, but overly simplistic and emotional for what’s going on here that affects many countries in many ways.

Did you happen to view the V. Varma interview on Page 41?
(“Ukraine invasion unjustified but West’s sanctions against Putin like act of war:” )
India’s recently retired Amb. Venkatesh Varma

DIPLOMATS will attempt to reduce “side-taking.” This is Tribalism 101
DIPLOMATS will attempt to appeal to resolution between sides, not annhilation of one side or the other.

One would guess Anabaptists would favor diplomacy.

[QuietlyListening]

I keep reading all the posts here. There is much posturing and trying to explain why Putin might want to have a buffer zone, why people in some of the eastern provinces or whatever they are called would want Putin to come in. Why NATO is at fault, the US is at fault, why don't we respond to this and that tragedy happening in other parts of the world. Personally I had not heard anything about Yemen, Somalia or other areas recently. But folks, people are being bombed, shot at, cities destroyed and more. War has been declared on one country- whether you agree with the boundaries or not- by another country or the leader of that country and civilians are dying. Yes, people are dying in other parts of the world from wrongful actions and we need to be praying but instead of trying to excuse a dictator - at least can you not admit this is horrific? That these people never asked for this- I am not addressing leaders responsibility just that people are experiencing the horrors of war. We need to be on our knees praying. Praying for our brothers and sisters that they know the Lord's peace and know how to reach out to those who do not know the Lord. For those who don't know the Lord and are terrified, that they would look to Him.

Pray for the people in other countries who are willingly opening their homes to the refugees pouring in. Sadly I doubt we in this country as a whole would respond like those in Ukraines bordering countries. But that is another topic. Instead of bringing up wars in other countries in this thread which is about Ukraine, start one about those countries.

But most of all pray for these people, pray for all that are affected.

[Sudsy]

I keep reading all the posts here. There is much posturing and trying to explain why Putin might want to have a buffer zone, why people in some of the eastern provinces or whatever they are called would want Putin to come in. Why NATO is at fault, the US is at fault, why don't we respond to this and that tragedy happening in other parts of the world. Personally I had not heard anything about Yemen, Somalia or other areas recently. But folks, people are being bombed, shot at, cities destroyed and more. War has been declared on one country- whether you agree with the boundaries or not- by another country or the leader of that country and civilians are dying. Yes, people are dying in other parts of the world from wrongful actions and we need to be praying but instead of trying to excuse a dictator - at least can you not admit this is horrific? That these people never asked for this- I am not addressing leaders responsibility just that people are experiencing the horrors of war. We need to be on our knees praying. Praying for our brothers and sisters that they know the Lord's peace and know how to reach out to those who do not know the Lord. For those who don't know the Lord and are terrified, that they would look to Him.

Pray for the people in other countries who are willingly opening their homes to the refugees pouring in. Sadly I doubt we in this country as a whole would respond like those in Ukraines bordering countries. But that is another topic. Instead of bringing up wars in other countries in this thread which is about Ukraine, start one about those countries.

But most of all pray for these people, pray for all that are affected.

Amen !

Yes, I especially agree to pray that the Gospel will reach those on both sides and all those that get involved in this war. When it comes down to it, we all are going to die some way or another. Our eternal destination is really what is of most importance.

It is puzzling at times to read about so many concerns for this temporal life when it is eternal life that is of most importance. This life is but a quick stop off to eternity. Dying without Christ is such a much more greater issue than dying itself. We all are going to die. I'm probably closer to that than most of you. This just might be my last post. So glad to be saved !