Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

Josh:
And I see a lot of people very eager to go to war.

GOING IN: it’s extremely seductive, it targets our most primitive instincts.

THE REALITY: is hell.

[mike]

Poland sending all its fighter planes to Ukraine is a real escalation of the conflict, especially if other NATO countries follow suit.

[Soloist]

Sounds good on paper, but a few questions that one could ask.

Is this a paper gift? Why would I ask that? for starters...
Do they have people trained in the maintenance of these fighters?
Do they have ammunition to mount on these fighters?
Do they have pilots trained on these fighters?
Do they still have pilots that are trained for combat flights?
Do they have reliable runways still to launch these fighters?

These are very complex pieces of machinery and require extensive support to be used effectively. Also, these are fuel hogs as far as fighters go...

[Bootstrap]

Sounds good on paper, but a few questions that one could ask.

Is this a paper gift? Why would I ask that? for starters...
Do they have people trained in the maintenance of these fighters?
Do they have ammunition to mount on these fighters?
Do they have pilots trained on these fighters?
Do they still have pilots that are trained for combat flights?
Do they have reliable runways still to launch these fighters?

These are very complex pieces of machinery and require extensive support to be used effectively. Also, these are fuel hogs as far as fighters go...

I'm guessing Poland feels very vulnerable right now, and I doubt that they would give away their MIGs if they didn't think it would make a difference.

I heard a podcast that claimed that the military in Ukraine knows this equipment much better than they would know Western equipment. I know nothing at all about fighter planes, but Defense One seems to agree with this:

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022 ... ds/362505/

Perhaps the most eye-popping of today’s pledges to ship weapons to the Ukrainian military was the European Union’s announcement that it would soon send fighter jets. Would Ukrainian pilots really be able to jump in a donated jet and fly into combat?

Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle says sure, if it’s a type they already know how to fly.

“It really would not be a big step, going from a Ukrainian MiG-29 to a Polish MiG-29,” said Carlisle, a retired general who oversaw U.S. Air Force fighter jets as head of Air Combat Command.

The EU official who made Sunday’s announcement said he understands that the Ukrainian Air Force has no time to get up to speed on unfamiliar aircraft.

“They need the kind of fighters…that the Ukrainian force is able to operate,” EU policy chief Josep Borrell said. “We know what kind of planes, and some member states have these kinds of planes.” Borrell did not say what kinds those were.

But according to the Flight International 2022 World Air Forces database, the Ukrainian air force flies Soviet-made MiG-29s and three types of Sukhoi jets. Three NATO nations, Poland, Slovakia, and Bulgaria, also fly the MiG-29, a twin-engine fighter jet developed in the 1970s. Bulgaria also flies the Su-25, a close-air support jet also flown by Ukraine.

Since Ukraine already flies the MiG-29, its Air Force pilots could immediately fly MiG-29s flown by other countries without any major training, Carlisle said. Pilots typically must go through a training course before climbing into the cockpit of a new type of jet.

[mike]

Sounds good on paper, but a few questions that one could ask.

Is this a paper gift? Why would I ask that? for starters...
Do they have people trained in the maintenance of these fighters?
Do they have ammunition to mount on these fighters?
Do they have pilots trained on these fighters?
Do they still have pilots that are trained for combat flights?
Do they have reliable runways still to launch these fighters?

These are very complex pieces of machinery and require extensive support to be used effectively. Also, these are fuel hogs as far as fighters go...

They are old Soviet-era MiGs from what I understand. Maybe these are planes the Ukrainians are familiar with. Apparently they are going to US custody then likely to Ukraine somehow.

[mike]

According to the current inventory on Wikipedia, the MiG-29 is an aircraft Ukrainians would be used to using.

[Soloist]

I'm guessing Poland feels very vulnerable right now, and I doubt that they would give away their MIGs if they didn't think it would make a difference.

I heard a podcast that claimed that the military in Ukraine knows this equipment much better than they would know Western equipment. I know nothing at all about fighter planes, but Defense One seems to agree with this:

Well from what I read, they are getting F-16's for passing on the Migs.

[mike]

I'm guessing Poland feels very vulnerable right now, and I doubt that they would give away their MIGs if they didn't think it would make a difference.

I heard a podcast that claimed that the military in Ukraine knows this equipment much better than they would know Western equipment. I know nothing at all about fighter planes, but Defense One seems to agree with this:

Well from what I read, they are getting F-16's for passing on the Migs.

These kinds of deals are what presaged WW2.

[Josh]

And you believe Putin's military has the jurisdiction to determine when that is appropriate? You really want a military dictatorship to make these decisions for its neighbors? And you believe he will do it in a fair and just way?

I believe the U.S. has absolutely no business in what's going on in Russia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, or elsewhere (unless one of those countries decides to invade America, which so far none of those countries have come close to doing, although I guess you could argue the U.S.S.R. came close a few times). We should not be shipping arms over there, promising troops, or getting involved. Ukraine is not even in NATO - we do not have treaty obligations, although I don't think America should have treaty obligations to go to war at the drop of a hat.

As far as I can tell, that's simply not true. And come on, you know that people make things up to justify military invasions.

Yes, and I believe that for both sides. As far as I can tell, it is absolutely true that ethnic Russians have been bombarded in the East, it's a fact the West doesn't want to talk about because it's bad for the West's side.

The basic fundamental problem here is that a military dictatorship has invaded Ukraine, and they are attacking the civilian populations. And so far, you simply don't seem to be capable of saying that's really terrible. You seem to be interested in telling Ukranians to surrender and explaining why Putin was right to invade.

I don't think the West is somehow superior to Russia, no. I see the West imposing a lot of really awful immoral requirements on other countries like LGBTQ acceptance and so far Russia hasn't been on board with that. From that perspective, I do not see how we can claim the West is morally superior to Russia. Both are just worldly kingdoms, each of which has its problems. I think the West has some very serious immoral problems.

I think the Kingdom of God stands with refugees and victims of warfare. I don't think it sides with the aggressor.

Of course. But the Kingdom of God also doesn't side with the Empire of America, the Empire of the West, or any of the military adventures we get up to. So far I see a lot of calls for America to go to war. Since I'm an American and live in America, it is my duty to speak out against that.

[temporal1]

1. Looking back, how should the U.S. have responded to Vietnam, or was the response the “right one and the only right one?”
The more i think about it, the more this reminds of Vietnam. There are forum members who were drafted.

2. If Russia had made this move on Ukraine when DJT was POTUS, what?? How would legacy Congress and their media have responded?
(Presumably, Orange Man Bad/Putin good, 100% DJT’s fault; the DOE would order Russian language classes for gov schools.)
Based on the pandemic response, and 4 years prior. “Anything” but Trump.