Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ernie]

I don't disagree Neto - but I wonder what freedoms affecting daily life would the Ukrainians have given up had Russia occupied their country?

Obviously there is no way to know, but certainly political "self-determination". IF the reports coming out of Russia are true, then we can know that the freedom to protest any governmental action would be eliminated, because the suppression of anti-war parades all over Russia shows that Russia's own citizens do not have that privilege. If Russian citizens do not feel it is safe for them to remain in their own country, that is another sign that non-citizens would also not have personal freedoms.

As has been reported, a number of independent media sources in Russia have shut down because of a new law that would imprison and fine journalists for reporting things that the Kremlin disagreed with.

But would that have happened in Ukraine, if Ukraine had remained neutral and ceded some territory Russia - territory in which the majority of the population wanted to be part of Russia? At one time Ukraine decided to separate from Russia. Shouldn't certain portions of Ukraine be able to return to Russia if they wanted to? Just like Texas and California becoming part of the USA if they wanted to?

[Falco Underhill]

I continue to suspect this whole narrative that Putin intends to "occupy" Ukraine (as well as other countries) in a push to recreate the boundaries of Imperial Russia - is pure fantasy.

That narrative is intended to associate Putin with a far right group called the Russian Imperial Movement (RIM) (who DO want to recreate Imperial Russia) so that when these neoNazi movements do spill over across other borders, Russia can be blamed for it.

In fact, the CIA has been funding and training the Ukrainian Azov Battalion for this insurgency for some time now.

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2022/03/in ... -al-qaeda/

The complete media blackout of the nazi presence in the Ukrainian national guard has been quite disappointing. The Asov Battalion is really despicable, and Ukraine decided to integrate them into their military, instead of battling them. That tells us a lot about the Ukrainian authorities.

I admit that I'm speculating some here, but I figured it's better to put those speculations out there now rather than to wait until after the fact. What point would it serve then?

[Neto]

Obviously there is no way to know, but certainly political "self-determination". IF the reports coming out of Russia are true, then we can know that the freedom to protest any governmental action would be eliminated, because the suppression of anti-war parades all over Russia shows that Russia's own citizens do not have that privilege. If Russian citizens do not feel it is safe for them to remain in their own country, that is another sign that non-citizens would also not have personal freedoms.

As has been reported, a number of independent media sources in Russia have shut down because of a new law that would imprison and fine journalists for reporting things that the Kremlin disagreed with.

But would that have happened in Ukraine, if Ukraine had remained neutral and ceded some territory Russia - territory in which the majority of the population wanted to be part of Russia? At one time Ukraine decided to separate from Russia. Shouldn't certain portions of Ukraine be able to return to Russia if they wanted to? Just like Texas and California becoming part of the USA if they wanted to?

Ukraine was taken over by the Russian Empire through war in the 1700's. Then the Ukrainian Republic that formed after the collapse of that government was defeated through an invasion of the military of the Russian government that eventually became the USSR. Ukraine was never a part of the Russian Federation. What sovereign nation gives up parts of its territory to another, except through military invasion? Crimea was taken (again, by an act of war) from the Turkish Empire by the Russian Empire (in about 1853, I think). It also later became a part of the USSR, and not by the choice of the native populations, because they were then driven out by the Soviets. They returned after it became a part of Ukraine, and have been persecuted again now, after it was taken over (not by war exactly, but by an act of aggression) by the Russian Federation. The reason there are so many ethnic Russians in these areas of what was under the control of the USSR is because the Russian Soviet leaders encouraged Russians to take over areas outside of their traditional homeland. If the German-speaking people in Canada (or the States) wanted to secede from the countries that allowed them to immigrate, and then become a part of Germany, what would you think? Or maybe if a lot of Americans moved to Canada, and then wanted to a part of the US?

[Josh]

As has been reported, a number of independent media sources in Russia have shut down because of a new law that would imprison and fine journalists for reporting things that the Kremlin disagreed with.

But would that have happened in Ukraine, if Ukraine had remained neutral and ceded some territory Russia - territory in which the majority of the population wanted to be part of Russia? At one time Ukraine decided to separate from Russia. Shouldn't certain portions of Ukraine be able to return to Russia if they wanted to? Just like Texas and California becoming part of the USA if they wanted to?

Ukraine was taken over by the Russian Empire through war in the 1700's. Then the Ukrainian Republic that formed after the collapse of that government was defeated through an invasion of the military of the Russian government that eventually became the USSR. Ukraine was never a part of the Russian Federation. What sovereign nation gives up parts of its territory to another, except through military invasion? Crimea was taken (again, by an act of war) from the Turkish Empire by the Russian Empire (in about 1853, I think). It also later became a part of the USSR, and not by the choice of the native populations, because they were then driven out by the Soviets. They returned after it became a part of Ukraine, and have been persecuted again now, after it was taken over (not by war exactly, but by an act of aggression) by the Russian Federation. The reason there are so many ethnic Russians in these areas of what was under the control of the USSR is because the Russian Soviet leaders encouraged Russians to take over areas outside of their traditional homeland. If the German-speaking people in Canada (or the States) wanted to secede from the countries that allowed them to immigrate, and then become a part of Germany, what would you think? Or maybe if a lot of Americans moved to Canada, and then wanted to a part of the US?

Neto,

By the same argument nobody in America has a legitimate claim to be here. The Ukraine has been Russian for a long time.

The languages and cultures are almost identical.

[Neto]

But would that have happened in Ukraine, if Ukraine had remained neutral and ceded some territory Russia - territory in which the majority of the population wanted to be part of Russia? At one time Ukraine decided to separate from Russia. Shouldn't certain portions of Ukraine be able to return to Russia if they wanted to? Just like Texas and California becoming part of the USA if they wanted to?

Ukraine was taken over by the Russian Empire through war in the 1700's. Then the Ukrainian Republic that formed after the collapse of that government was defeated through an invasion of the military of the Russian government that eventually became the USSR. Ukraine was never a part of the Russian Federation. What sovereign nation gives up parts of its territory to another, except through military invasion? Crimea was taken (again, by an act of war) from the Turkish Empire by the Russian Empire (in about 1853, I think). It also later became a part of the USSR, and not by the choice of the native populations, because they were then driven out by the Soviets. They returned after it became a part of Ukraine, and have been persecuted again now, after it was taken over (not by war exactly, but by an act of aggression) by the Russian Federation. The reason there are so many ethnic Russians in these areas of what was under the control of the USSR is because the Russian Soviet leaders encouraged Russians to take over areas outside of their traditional homeland. If the German-speaking people in Canada (or the States) wanted to secede from the countries that allowed them to immigrate, and then become a part of Germany, what would you think? Or maybe if a lot of Americans moved to Canada, and then wanted to a part of the US?

Neto,

By the same argument nobody in America has a legitimate claim to be here. The Ukraine has been Russian for a long time.

The languages and cultures are almost identical.

Honestly, nothing I said has anything to do with whether an immigrant has a right to live here, or anywhere else. The question I posed was whether a group of immigrants have the right to move in and then secede from their host nation and join another, or create a new nation there.

Regarding the cultures and languages of the Ukrainian and Russian peoples - from what I know of these countries, based on my family's experiences there, and that of others who lived there, your statement is simply incorrect. The Ukrainian language & culture was repressed, outlawed, during the reign of the USSR there. As to how the nation of Ukraine has responded to the use of foreign language use, that is something I have only recently examined, so I have no experience-based opinions about that. From what I have seen, however, the use of Russian was not outlawed. It is also allowed to be used in public education up through elementary school. I suspect that every nation has an official language, one that must be used in government offices and interactions. There are Russians living in Brazil - a colony of sorts - up in the north west of the country. But if they want to do business in the government offices, they must use Portuguese. There are many Germans living there. They must do the same. Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Americans who fled the Southern States after the Confederacy was defeated by the Union armies, same deal, they must all use the national language.

After all, if Russian & Ukrainian are the same language, then why do the Russians who live in Ukraine care what it is called?

[Jazman]

I believe I heard one radio report along these lines but haven't seen too much discussed about the dissent that is happening within Russia... Have others of you seen/heard reports like this and how do they fit in the narrative (or the narrative you've adopted)? War in Ukraine. The Russians Leaving for Finland

[Josh]

I believe I heard one radio report along these lines but haven't seen too much discussed about the dissent that is happening within Russia... Have others of you seen/heard reports like this and how do they fit in the narrative (or the narrative you've adopted)? War in Ukraine. The Russians Leaving for Finland

Consider the source (which is the UK government). What narrative would they promote?

[QuietlyListening]

The languages and cultures are almost identical.

If the language is almost identical- why did the husband of the one couple we knew in ESL know Russian only- he grew up in Ukraine during USSR domination and Russian was only language taught. His wife learned both. His children know both but they speak in Russian to him as he does not know Ukrainian well enough.

Culture the same? From what I read about the time when Stalin starved the Ukrainians - he was trying to wipe out that culture and moved Russians in when so many died from starvation.
And the Ukrainians I know do not agree with what you are saying. I will go with believing them- they are Ukrainian.

[JimFoxvog]

Honestly, nothing I said has anything to do with whether an immigrant has a right to live here, or anywhere else. The question I posed was whether a group of immigrants have the right to move in and then secede from their host nation and join another, or create a new nation there.

Watch out! You are questioning Texas!

[Ken]

As has been reported, a number of independent media sources in Russia have shut down because of a new law that would imprison and fine journalists for reporting things that the Kremlin disagreed with.

But would that have happened in Ukraine, if Ukraine had remained neutral and ceded some territory Russia - territory in which the majority of the population wanted to be part of Russia? At one time Ukraine decided to separate from Russia. Shouldn't certain portions of Ukraine be able to return to Russia if they wanted to? Just like Texas and California becoming part of the USA if they wanted to?

Ukraine was taken over by the Russian Empire through war in the 1700's. Then the Ukrainian Republic that formed after the collapse of that government was defeated through an invasion of the military of the Russian government that eventually became the USSR. Ukraine was never a part of the Russian Federation. What sovereign nation gives up parts of its territory to another, except through military invasion? Crimea was taken (again, by an act of war) from the Turkish Empire by the Russian Empire (in about 1853, I think). It also later became a part of the USSR, and not by the choice of the native populations, because they were then driven out by the Soviets. They returned after it became a part of Ukraine, and have been persecuted again now, after it was taken over (not by war exactly, but by an act of aggression) by the Russian Federation. The reason there are so many ethnic Russians in these areas of what was under the control of the USSR is because the Russian Soviet leaders encouraged Russians to take over areas outside of their traditional homeland. If the German-speaking people in Canada (or the States) wanted to secede from the countries that allowed them to immigrate, and then become a part of Germany, what would you think? Or maybe if a lot of Americans moved to Canada, and then wanted to a part of the US?

Unlike the US constitution, I believe the Ukrainian Constitution actually contains provisions for the legal secession of parts of the country. It requires a national referendum. That would be the legal way for parts of Ukraine to secede if they wished to do so.

There is no mention of invading armies though.