Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

The UN Human Rights Council voted to create a commission to investigate allegations of war crimes in this conflict. We'll see what the commission finds -- they are supposed to release a report in 2023.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights ... 022-03-04/

Those commissions are always too late to do anything practical... I'm sure they will find something valid though. I take it that's not one that Russia has the veto vote on

[nett]

And really, when a police state invades its neighbor with one of the world's largest military forces, threatening to use nuclear weapons, pummeling civilian populations, why do you think it's so important to promote the claims they made in order to invade? Do you believe that the reasons given for invading countries usually turn out to be true?

Let's fact-check this statement disguised as question.

• a police state [...] with one of the world's largest military forces ✓
• threatening to use nuclear weapons - Upping readiness level does not equal a threat ✗
• pummeling civilian populations - UN currently estimates 249 killed ✗

I would suggest you are repeating hysterical arguments that are not based in reality.

[Szdfan]

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/03/04 ... is-guy-out

Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, called on Thursday night for the assassination of President Vladimir V. Putin, saying in a television interview as Russian forces shelled a nuclear power plant in Ukraine that somebody in Russia should “step up to the plate” and “take this guy out.”

“Is there a Brutus in Russia?” Mr. Graham asked on Fox News. “Is there a more successful Colonel Stauffenberg in the Russian military? The only way this ends is for somebody in Russia to take this guy out.”

“The only people who can fix this are the Russian people,” Mr. Graham continued. “Easy to say, hard to do. Unless you want to live in darkness for the rest of your life, be isolated from the rest of the world in abject poverty, and live in darkness, you need to step up to the plate.”

The senator faced a swift backlash from members of his own party, including Senator Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas, who wrote on Twitter: “This is an exceptionally bad idea.”

[Bootstrap]

Russia has nothing to gain by committing war crimes. Doesn't mean they won't, but Ukraine has plenty to gain by arguing Russia is committing them.

Russia thinks it has a lot to gain by committing war crimes. They want to terrorize the Ukranian population. This is what they did in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and in . Shock and awe. Make it hurt for the population. How dare they resist the Russian military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes

This is what it looks like when Russia invades its neighbors.

In Chechnya:

Amnesty International estimated that between 20,000 and 30,000 civilians have been killed in the First Chechen War alone, mostly by indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces on densely populated areas, and that a further 25,000 civilians died in the Second Chechen War. Another source assumes that 40,000–45,000 civilians were killed in the second conflict. Meanwhile, in 1996, the then Russian National Security chief Aleksandr Lebed said that 80,000 people died in the first war. Combined with the military forces, historians estimate that up to a tenth of the entire Chechen population died in the first war, a 100,000 people out of a million. Conservative estimates assume that at least 100,000–150,000 people died in the two conflicts. Higher estimates by Chechen officials and nationals assume that up to 200,000–300,000 died in the two wars.Since the start of the conflicts, there have been 57 recorded mass graves in Chechnya.

In Georgia:

Russia deliberately attacked fleeing civilians in South Ossetia and the Gori district of Georgia.[4] Russian warplanes bombed civilian population centres in Georgia proper and villages of ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia.[4] Armed militias engaged in plundering, burning and kidnappings. Attacks by militias compelled Georgian civilians to run away

The use of cluster bombs by the Russians caused fatalities among civilians. Amnesty International accused Russia of deliberately bombarding and attacking civilian areas and infrastructure, which is a war crime. Russia denied using cluster bombs. 228 Georgian civilians perished in the conflict.

Additionally, the Russian military did nothing to prevent the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia in the area under its control.

Keep reading what it has to say about Ukraine in 2014, Syria, etc.

Most people will get riled up by the first news and never check back later if it was discredited. Once again, propaganda is on both sides and one should take Russian or Ukrainian news with a grain of salt.
[/quote

There is definitely propaganda on both sides. But Russia has a long track record here. We are in the fog of war, but what Russia is being accused of is very similar to things they have done in other conflicts. And in those conflicts, we are no longer in the fog of war.

And let's stop playing the "both sides" game here. One side invaded the other side. That's clear. And it's bad. The war is being fought on the soil of the other side, where the real victims of this war are found.

[Szdfan]

The UN Human Rights Council voted to create a commission to investigate allegations of war crimes in this conflict. We'll see what the commission finds -- they are supposed to release a report in 2023.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights ... 022-03-04/

Those commissions are always too late to do anything practical... I'm sure they will find something valid though. I take it that's not one that Russia has the veto vote on

I think the only UN body that any country has veto rights on is the UN Security Council.

I agree that the commission won't be able to do anything practical -- nothing that the UN Human Rights Council does is legally binding anyway -- but you were just complaining how "[m]ost people will get riled up by the first news and never check back later if it was discredited." It's going to take time, but this is one way to determine whether the allegations have any credibility.

[Bootstrap]

And really, when a police state invades its neighbor with one of the world's largest military forces, threatening to use nuclear weapons, pummeling civilian populations, why do you think it's so important to promote the claims they made in order to invade? Do you believe that the reasons given for invading countries usually turn out to be true?

Let's fact-check this statement disguised as question.

No, it was a question. And I think you have answered - yes, you believe Russian propaganda and feel the need to promote it and excuse their actions and play "both sides" with this. You don't seem to have any sympathy for the people whose country was attacked and are now living in a war zone. That's not good.

Do you deny that Russia is attacking civilian areas of Ukraine? Yes, you point out that we don't have confirmed reports of large numbers of deaths, but are you really claiming that Russia is not attacking Ukranian cities, including the civilian population? We won't know how many people are dying for a long time, but we do know about the attacks.

[nett]

Russia has nothing to gain by committing war crimes. Doesn't mean they won't, but Ukraine has plenty to gain by arguing Russia is committing them.

Russia thinks it has a lot to gain by committing war crimes. They want to terrorize the Ukranian population. This is what they did in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, and in . Shock and awe. Make it hurt for the population. How dare they resist the Russian military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes

This is what it looks like when Russia invades its neighbors.

In Chechnya:

Amnesty International estimated that between 20,000 and 30,000 civilians have been killed in the First Chechen War alone, mostly by indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces on densely populated areas, and that a further 25,000 civilians died in the Second Chechen War. Another source assumes that 40,000–45,000 civilians were killed in the second conflict. Meanwhile, in 1996, the then Russian National Security chief Aleksandr Lebed said that 80,000 people died in the first war. Combined with the military forces, historians estimate that up to a tenth of the entire Chechen population died in the first war, a 100,000 people out of a million. Conservative estimates assume that at least 100,000–150,000 people died in the two conflicts. Higher estimates by Chechen officials and nationals assume that up to 200,000–300,000 died in the two wars.Since the start of the conflicts, there have been 57 recorded mass graves in Chechnya.

In Georgia:

Russia deliberately attacked fleeing civilians in South Ossetia and the Gori district of Georgia.[4] Russian warplanes bombed civilian population centres in Georgia proper and villages of ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia.[4] Armed militias engaged in plundering, burning and kidnappings. Attacks by militias compelled Georgian civilians to run away

The use of cluster bombs by the Russians caused fatalities among civilians. Amnesty International accused Russia of deliberately bombarding and attacking civilian areas and infrastructure, which is a war crime. Russia denied using cluster bombs. 228 Georgian civilians perished in the conflict.

Additionally, the Russian military did nothing to prevent the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia in the area under its control.

Keep reading what it has to say about Ukraine in 2014, Syria, etc.

Most people will get riled up by the first news and never check back later if it was discredited. Once again, propaganda is on both sides and one should take Russian or Ukrainian news with a grain of salt.
[/quote

There is definitely propaganda on both sides. But Russia has a long track record here. We are in the fog of war, but what Russia is being accused of is very similar to things they have done in other conflicts. And in those conflicts, we are no longer in the fog of war.

And let's stop playing the "both sides" game here. One side invaded the other side. That's clear. And it's bad. The war is being fought on the soil of the other side, where the real victims of this war are found.

If we're just going to indiscriminately post wiki articles. I find a longer one that has WAY more war crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

[temporal1]

My, my. Keyboard warriors are at it this morning. ^^^
i’ll post this, then read.

nett:
Well, I've been waiting before accepting anything I see. I have some sources that I do trust on these events.

I won't bother sharing them because they aren't mainstream enough for the crowd here.

Sad, and believable.

Keep in mind, this forum has admin+mods who strive to allow varied opinions.
They are not noisy, but they keep an eye on things. They will respond to you, they won’t attack or dismiss.
They aren’t perfect, but i don’t see how they could do better.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell,” has now been relegated to: anyone who does not parrot the lib mainstream.

In their own words, some are dedicated to applying it to this forum. It’s not a secret.
So far, lots of noise, but “varied opinions” continue, nonetheless.

Thank you, admin+mods.

[Bootstrap]

Let me try to look at this from a Kingdom of God perspective.

It's clear which country attacked. Russia did. It's clear where the victims of this war live. Ukraine. Grieving, praying, seeking to help refugees and those who are in danger, hungering and thirsting for righteousness - these seem like good Kingdom of God things. In the way we discuss this, are we doing that or are we making that really, really hard to do?

Trying to promote the narratives of the invading military force does not seem like a good Kingdom of God approach. Playing the same old culture war games with the latest topic does not seem like a good Kingdom of God approach.

In the fog of war, I think we need that clarity.

[nett]

You don't seem to have any sympathy for the people whose country was attacked and are now living in a war zone. That's not good.

This coming from the person who claims that shelling for 8 years in the Donbas was irrelevant. I have a lot of sympathy for people caught in war zones. I think it's tragic. I do not however share your liberal belief that it's avoidable. Wars and rumors of wars are guarenteed.

Do you deny that Russia is attacking civilian areas of Ukraine? Yes, you point out that we don't have confirmed reports of large numbers of deaths, but are you really claiming that Russia is not attacking Ukranian cities, including the civilian population? We won't know how many people are dying for a long time, but we do know about the attacks.

Yes I do. Every single sensational story I've read about Russia targeting civilians has been misinformation so far. Russia is clearly trying to minimize civilian losses, while inflicting maximum military strategic loss, and expending as little of their own resources as possible.

Personally I think the decision by Russia to devote inexperienced soldiers, and outdated equipment is not very honorable, and I think it's contributing to civilian casualty that could be avoided. That's my armchair opinion, I am admittedly not a military strategist.