Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

You're so invested in your partisanship, in trying to "debunk" well historical events, you missed the obvious corollary to what I'm saying.

No, I just do a lot of fact checking and reading history from reliable sources.

You and some others really need to stop claiming that you see clearly and whoever disagrees is partisan. When you turn everything into a fight between sides, you are being partisan. Reasonable discussion about facts and principles is the way to get beyond that.

Focus on the facts and how we can know that they are, in fact, facts. You and some others seem to be giving the same "facts" that Russia is promoting in its war propaganda. I assume that's not because you are actually allied with Putin and in favor of this war, so I won't make that claim. I would appreciate it if you would not make the same claim in the opposite direction.

There's really no point in trying to discuss facts with you otherwise. Because this and other tactics always detract from any serious attempt to discuss facts, turning to other shiny objects instead.

[Bootstrap]

Ummm…maybe because invading a neighboring country is a bad thing?

That seems blindingly obvious.

[nett]

You're so invested in your partisanship, in trying to "debunk" well historical events, you missed the obvious corollary to what I'm saying.

No, I just do a lot of fact checking and reading history from reliable sources.

You and some others really need to stop claiming that you see clearly and whoever disagrees is partisan. When you turn everything into a fight between sides, you are being partisan. Reasonable discussion about facts and principles is the way to get beyond that.

Focus on the facts and how we can know that they are, in fact, facts. You and some others seem to be giving the same "facts" that Russia is promoting in its war propaganda. I assume that's not because you are actually allied with Putin and in favor of this war, so I won't make that claim. I would appreciate it if you would not make the same claim in the opposite direction.

There's really no point in trying to discuss facts with you otherwise. Because this and other tactics always detract from any serious attempt to discuss facts, turning to other shiny objects instead.

Most of the tweets and "new" articles that have been posted on this thread have turned out to be Ukrainian propaganda. Now please point to one thing I posted that has been "debunked"

[Bootstrap]

Once again, this would appear to be pure Ukrainian propaganda.

Plenty of propaganda on both sides in any war. Here's one fact checking site that seems to be doing well at finding falsehood in propaganda from both sides:

https://ukrainefacts.org/

Ken, I'll give you the same advice I gave Boot. When you see fake news like this, wait about 8 hours before you get your jingoist outrage engine fired up.

Nett, how do you practice what you preach here? What kind of fact checking do you do in order to make sure that the things you promote are actually true? You seem to be finding things on the Internet and posting them, how are you fact checking them?

How do you ensure that you are not promoting war propaganda from a military aggressor? You and I agree that we shouldn't be gullible and that we should not be useful idiots of warmongers - how do you personally put that principle into practice?

[Bootstrap]

There's really no point in trying to discuss facts with you otherwise. Because this and other tactics always detract from any serious attempt to discuss facts, turning to other shiny objects instead.

Most of the tweets and "new" articles that have been posted on this thread have turned out to be Ukrainian propaganda. Now please point to one thing I posted that has been "debunked"

Go back and read the thread so far. Take the claims that have already been challenged. Tell me how you would go about determining what the truth is for those claims. What sources would you read and compare? What facts would determine the truth? Do that first. Until you do, no point in trying to go further.

I know you don't believe that anything you said has been "debunked", but you are swatting these things away with strong language and personal attacks instead of actually engaging with the facts in detail. Take that 8 hour break you keep mentioning, ask yourself how a rational, objective person would try to establish what can and cannot be known, what sources you should consider in order to be objective, what constitutes real evidence in the fog of war. And do that.

And really, when a police state invades its neighbor with one of the world's largest military forces, threatening to use nuclear weapons, pummeling civilian populations, why do you think it's so important to promote the claims they made in order to invade? Do you believe that the reasons given for invading countries usually turn out to be true?

[temporal1]

…maybe because invading a neighboring country is a bad thing?

That seems blindingly obvious.

blindingly. no one is denying it. not all refuse to question overall facts.
history has proven, when facts are blinding, big lies are involved. discretion is the wiser choice.

[mike]

Kiev still in Ukrainian control

[nett]

Once again, this would appear to be pure Ukrainian propaganda.

Plenty of propaganda on both sides in any war. Here's one fact checking site that seems to be doing well at finding falsehood in propaganda from both sides:

https://ukrainefacts.org/

That's an interesting site, and it looks like the claims they're debunking are about 90% pro-ukrainian. If Russia is the misinformation bogeyman the MSM claims it is, why is that? I would say Russia is losing the information war, and I'm disappointed to see people on this forum taking sides in that war.

Ken, I'll give you the same advice I gave Boot. When you see fake news like this, wait about 8 hours before you get your jingoist outrage engine fired up.

Nett, how do you practice what you preach here? What kind of fact checking do you do in order to make sure that the things you promote are actually true? You seem to be finding things on the Internet and posting them, how are you fact checking them?

Well, I've been waiting before accepting anything I see. I have some sources that I do trust on these events. I won't bother sharing them because they aren't mainstream enough for the crowd here.

How do you ensure that you are not promoting war propaganda from a military aggressor? You and I agree that we shouldn't be gullible and that we should not be useful idiots of warmongers - how do you personally put that principle into practice?

I don't spontaneously post partisan propaganda. So far, on this forum, I have only questioned prevailing pro-Ukrainian consensus that is based in falsehoods. I don't support either side, because I refrain from political support.

Now, I would like you to answer. Why is it so ubiquitously accepted that a nation that is the "aggressor" is automatically in the wrong. Last I checked, nations go to war, and a role of government is the manage war and invasions. Is there some Biblical precedent that I'm missing here?

Just to make sure we don't end up on fruitless bunny trails, I understand that Christians and the church should not go to war, however to feed, house, and provide medical aid in wartimes is acceptable and is not "supporting war". The same goes for praying for justice, peace and mercy. I'm asking specifically about the role of nations in war, and the morality of "invading your neighbor"

By initial take is that a lot of people are espousing liberal ideology about war, which is the fantasy that wars are not inevitable and necessary. And I think in that have mistaken liberal orthodoxy for Biblical truth.

I would be more interested in a biblical discussion about the role of nations in war, than fact-checking propaganda for now.

[Soloist]

Russia has nothing to gain by committing war crimes. Doesn't mean they won't, but Ukraine has plenty to gain by arguing Russia is committing them.

Most people will get riled up by the first news and never check back later if it was discredited. Once again, propaganda is on both sides and one should take Russian or Ukrainian news with a grain of salt.

[Szdfan]

Russia has nothing to gain by committing war crimes. Doesn't mean they won't, but Ukraine has plenty to gain by arguing Russia is committing them.

Most people will get riled up by the first news and never check back later if it was discredited. Once again, propaganda is on both sides and one should take Russian or Ukrainian news with a grain of salt.

The UN Human Rights Council voted to create a commission to investigate allegations of war crimes in this conflict. We'll see what the commission finds -- they are supposed to release a report in 2023.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights ... 022-03-04/