Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:31 pm Watching war crimes happen on live TV is a sobering experience: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customar ... _us_rule42
Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions prohibits attack against dams, dikes, and nuclear power stations, if “severe” civilian losses might result from flooding or radioactivity.
When the news media, Republicans, Democrats, and the entire West are doing such a good job of making you think someone is your enemy...

... probably is a good time to take a step back and ask yourself "Why do they want me to think that?"
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:33 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:31 pm Watching war crimes happen on live TV is a sobering experience: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customar ... _us_rule42
Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions prohibits attack against dams, dikes, and nuclear power stations, if “severe” civilian losses might result from flooding or radioactivity.
When the news media, Republicans, Democrats, and the entire West are doing such a good job of making you think someone is your enemy...

... probably is a good time to take a step back and ask yourself "Why do they want me to think that?"
Yes Josh. This war is just a nefarious western plot to make Russia and Vladimir Putin look bad.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Bootstrap

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

nett wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:51 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:32 pm Hard to take the article at all seriously when it starts like this:
While much of the world is focused on Covid-related issues, Ukraine’s seven-year war on the people of Donbass continues.
Russsia and Ukraine have been in a low-level war for these seven years. Russia has been carving out bits of Ukraine and trying to undermine it. Calling this a war with "the people of Donbass" is a clear indicator of what kind of spin this is.

The article reads as though the people in Donbass are united and makes no mention of Russia's intensive involvement in these regions. I have no idea if anything beyond that is factual or not, it takes me significant time to check facts. But you do know, of course, that countries make extreme claims in order to justify invading their neighbors, and that they use information warfare, promoting propaganda to raise support for their cause. Tell me why "popularresistance.org" should be considered factual and balanced in its coverage. Even the name implies an activist website.
So you're saying The Ukraine has not been shelling civilians in the Donbas?
Yes. Shortly before invading Ukraine, Russia suddenly starts this huge outrage campaign to justify invading. As predicted by the intelligence services of both the United States and Great Britain. This is war propaganda used by the aggressor to invade a country.

Here's one place to look:

Ukraine crisis: Is Russia staging 'false flag' incidents?

When Russia started promoting these narratives, that was one sign that they were preparing to invade. Here's a tweet from the Ukrainian government that came from that time, I think it is factually accurate.

Screen Shot 2022-03-04 at 07.13.49.png
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Dan Z

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Dan Z »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:33 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:31 pm Watching war crimes happen on live TV is a sobering experience: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customar ... _us_rule42
Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions prohibits attack against dams, dikes, and nuclear power stations, if “severe” civilian losses might result from flooding or radioactivity.
When the news media, Republicans, Democrats, and the entire West are doing such a good job of making you think someone is your enemy...

... probably is a good time to take a step back and ask yourself "Why do they want me to think that?"
Ummm…maybe because invading a neighboring country is a bad thing?
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nett
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:22 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Fellowship

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by nett »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:19 am Yes. Shortly before invading Ukraine, Russia suddenly starts this huge outrage campaign to justify invading. As predicted by the intelligence services of both the United States and Great Britain. This is war propaganda used by the aggressor to invade a country.

Here's one place to look:

Ukraine crisis: Is Russia staging 'false flag' incidents?

When Russia started promoting these narratives, that was one sign that they were preparing to invade. Here's a tweet from the Ukrainian government that came from that time, I think it is factually accurate.


Screen Shot 2022-03-04 at 07.13.49.png
So Ukraine said they didn't do it, and The Ukraine hasn't used false propaganda at all during this crisis right?

You're so invested in your partisanship, in trying to "debunk" well historical events, you missed the obvious corollary to what I'm saying. The Ukraine's war crimes in the Donbas have been going on for 8 years, so where was Russia during that time? I'm not trying to say Russia is 100% virtuous in this. They turned a blind eye to it while it suited them. Now that Russia is seeing a lot of weakness in the global order, and that the downsides of being a member in that order might not outweigh the "benefits", they are acting.
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Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Denying war crimes in Donbas is disgusting. These people have been under attack since 2014. The real question is why so many so called “pacifists” feel such a need to defend belligerent terrorists.

Ultimately, Russia doesn’t have to convince you - they need to convince people in Odessa, Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. That’s actually going pretty well for Russia.
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

:arrow: Not isolated to TV news:
Image


Image
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nett
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:22 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Fellowship

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by nett »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:45 pm It seems that the Russians learned nothing from Chernobyl.

Prevailing winds blow to the east in Ukraine. So the fallout will drift right towards Russia if there is a reactor melt-down.

This seems pretty extremely high on the list of egregious actions by the Russians so far in this war.

Once again, this would appear to be pure Ukrainian propaganda. Russia has been controlling the territory of the Zaporozhskaya nuclear power plant since February 28th. This does not appear to be disputed.

Meanwhile,
The spokesman for the Russian Ministry of Defense, Major General Igor Konashenkov, issued an official statement on Friday morning concerning the shootout and fire that had occurred at Ukraine’s Zaporozhskaya nuclear power plant earlier the same day.

“Last night, an attempt to carry out a horrible provocation was made by Kiev’s nationalist regime on the area surrounding the station,” he announced, claiming the Russian troops patrolling the territory had been attacked by a Ukrainian sabotage group.

According to the spokesman, the Ukrainian forces had attacked Russian soldiers at about 2am local time, opening heavy fire from the training facility next to the power station in order to “provoke a retaliatory strike on the building.”

The Russian patrol had neutralized the group’s firing points, but the saboteurs had then set fire to the training facility as they retreated, Konashenkov said. The blaze was put out by the Ukrainian State Emergency Service’s firefighters. “At the moment of provocation, no staff members were at the facility,” he noted.

In response to the Russian Ministry of Defense’s statement, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky denied the provocation claims and accused Russian forces of having staged the attack.

The mayor of the nearby town of Energodar had originally reported that the fire had been caused by Russian shelling, and that the blaze had engulfed the power plant itself, but the emergency services dismissed the latter claim.

Fire extinguished at key Ukrainian nuclear plant
Read more Fire extinguished at key Ukrainian nuclear plant
It was reported on Monday that the facility had been captured by Russian forces, and that staff were keeping operations going and monitoring radiation levels. The International Atomic Energy Agency has offered assurances that there has been no change in those levels in the wake of the incident.
Have to take what's coming out of Russia with a grain of salt obviously, but I was able to find corroboration of what the emergency services said about the situation.

Since Russia was in control of the area, and the power plant was operating normally, the scenario described in the Russian statement seems much more likely. Why would Russian troops suddenly attack a power plant in an area that they already had control of. Also, now that Russia has regained full control of the plant, the fire is out, and the plant remains fully operational.

Ken, I'll give you the same advice I gave Boot. When you see fake news like this, wait about 8 hours before you get your jingoist outrage engine fired up.
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Szdfan

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:54 am Denying war crimes in Donbas is disgusting. These people have been under attack since 2014. The real question is why so many so called “pacifists” feel such a need to defend belligerent terrorists.

Ultimately, Russia doesn’t have to convince you - they need to convince people in Odessa, Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. That’s actually going pretty well for Russia.
Odessa is not located in the Donbas or the Crimea and is still part of the Ukraine. The city is currently preparing defenses against the Russian military as they advance on nearby Mykolaiv.
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temporal1

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

nett:
.. wait about 8 hours ..

it appears this sage advice has been replaced with, “wait until the NYT speaks to it.” (it may take awhile.)

- - - - -

in general, a google search for any given news item may offer 10-20 results (“sources”).
headlines are typically eerily similar, if not identical wording. (that means it’s true!) :roll:

opening links reveal “AP NEWS” is the actual ONE source. the rest are copied. this is common.

“fact checkers,” etc., ditto.

the public is buying a product it wants. the for-profit “news” industry is happy to accomodate. $$$$
in addition to its powerful lobbies, ensuring legal protections for the industry to continue on its merry way. $$$$
Last edited by temporal1 on Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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