ohio jones wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:04 pm
So if Russia is shelling Ukraine, you support Ukrainian independence, right?
Yes, if they'd had a habit of doing that for the last 8 years, I would support that.
Supporting people in Donetsk and Luhansk is obviously not the same thing. Russia has been quite patient about this and has put up with unreasonable behaviour from the Ukraine now for 8 years. The obvious question is - what exactly does the West expect? Do they really think they should expect Russia (and China, India, Brazil, and other nations choosing to be non-aligned) to simply let America and NATO do whatever they want right on their borders without repurcussions?
We opened this door when we decided to invade Serbia and create Kosovo. There are no "rules" anymore. It's just about whatever you can get away with.
"We"? Wrong kingdom, dude. Try again.
I'm not convinced "we" ought to support either side in conflicts like this. If we do, maybe it should be on the basis of this question: Under which worldly kingdom (if either) can our brothers and sisters who live there lead quiet and peaceable lives?
I'd rather not make them endure 8 years of war before "we" decide they deserve to remain independent.
The international interchurch prayer service I linked to had some technical difficulties, but was quite moving and powerful. There were several thousand participants from all over the world. A significant portion was given to Ukrainian church leaders. I don't recall one calling for the killing of Russians; there was not a sense of hostility, but a call for peace.
One of those who spoke and prayed was a Ukrainian Baptist leader. He said the Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination. He also mentioned how the religious oppression in the occupied territories was harsher recently than it was under the Soviet Union. The Baptist church, declared a "terrorist organization", is growing in the region. He didn't define "occupied territories", but I presume he meant the regions that Russia has declared independent but the rest of the world recognizes as part of Ukraine.
I pray for peace for all involved. In my opinion, the best solution would be Putin's repentance. Second best would be a bloodless coup in Russia. But I pray for God's solution, not mine.
ohio jones wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:04 pm
So if Russia is shelling Ukraine, you support Ukrainian independence, right?
Yes, if they'd had a habit of doing that for the last 8 years, I would support that.
Supporting people in Donetsk and Luhansk is obviously not the same thing. Russia has been quite patient about this and has put up with unreasonable behaviour from the Ukraine now for 8 years. The obvious question is - what exactly does the West expect? Do they really think they should expect Russia (and China, India, Brazil, and other nations choosing to be non-aligned) to simply let America and NATO do whatever they want right on their borders without repurcussions?
We opened this door when we decided to invade Serbia and create Kosovo. There are no "rules" anymore. It's just about whatever you can get away with.
"We"? Wrong kingdom, dude. Try again.
I'm not convinced "we" ought to support either side in conflicts like this. If we do, maybe it should be on the basis of this question: Under which worldly kingdom (if either) can our brothers and sisters who live there lead quiet and peaceable lives?
I'd rather not make them endure 8 years of war before "we" decide they deserve to remain independent.
We should be wary of supporting any side in armed conflicts. But not all sides are equal either, not by a long stretch.
The "side" Josh is apparently favoring above in his mention of Kosovo is the Serbia of Slobodan Milošević, former communist apparatchik during the Yugoslav days and dictator of Serbia during the time period of the Kosovo conflict. He famously became the first sitting head of state to be charged with war crimes. He was charged with crimes against humanity for aiding in genocide and various other war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia as well as Kosovo.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
We should be wary of supporting any side in armed conflicts. But not all sides are equal either, not by a long stretch.
The "side" Josh is apparently favoring above in his mention of Kosovo is the Serbia of Slobodan Milošević, former communist apparatchik during the Yugoslav days and dictator of Serbia during the time period of the Kosovo conflict. He famously became the first sitting head of state to be charged with war crimes. He was charged with crimes against humanity for aiding in genocide and various other war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia as well as Kosovo.
Meanwhile we are aiding Saudi Arabia against Yemen... And overlooking China (so are the Russians of course) Nothing is ever as clear as we want it to be.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:49 pm
Is it possible to understand why someone does something without actually endorsing the person and what they do? Or is this deemed impossible?
We should be wary of supporting any side in armed conflicts. But not all sides are equal either, not by a long stretch.
The "side" Josh is apparently favoring above in his mention of Kosovo is the Serbia of Slobodan Milošević, former communist apparatchik during the Yugoslav days and dictator of Serbia during the time period of the Kosovo conflict. He famously became the first sitting head of state to be charged with war crimes. He was charged with crimes against humanity for aiding in genocide and various other war crimes in Bosnia and Croatia as well as Kosovo.
Meanwhile we are aiding Saudi Arabia against Yemen... And overlooking China (so are the Russians of course) Nothing is ever as clear as we want it to be.
No, it's pretty clear. The civil war in Yemen is inexcusable. And to the extent that I know about that war, it seems there are no "good" sides there. Not the Saudi side and Yemenese government they are supporting. And not the Iranian-supported Houthi rebels who have committed many atrocities of their own. It is essentially a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran involving two bad sides, and we should be playing no part it it except to negotiate a peace. Biden should be commended for ending American involvement in Afghanistan, but should be criticized for continuing support for the Saudi war in Yemen. I'm not sure what we are overlooking in China though. The US government has been pretty forceful in its pressing of the issue of the treatment of the Uyghur minority.
The US government is frequently NOT the good guys in international conflicts. By all rights, George Bush, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld should all have been tried for war crimes and be spending their final years in prison in the Hague for starting the Iraq war under false pretenses. Just as Kissinger and Nixon should have been tried for war crimes in Vietnam and probably McNamara and Johnson as well..
We should call out bad actors wherever they are across the globe, even when they are in our own White House.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:32 pm
No, it's pretty clear. The civil war in Yemen is inexcusable. And to the extent that I know about that war, it seems there are no "good" sides there. Not the Saudi side and Yemenese government they are supporting. And not the Iranian-supported Houthi rebels who have committed many atrocities of their own. It is essentially a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran involving two bad sides, and we should be playing no part it it except to negotiate a peace. Biden should be commended for ending American involvement in Afghanistan, but should be criticized for continuing support for the Saudi war in Yemen. I'm not sure what we are overlooking in China though. The US government has been pretty forceful in its pressing of the issue of the treatment of the Uyghur minority.
The US government is frequently NOT the good guys in international conflicts. By all rights, George Bush, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld should all have been tried for war crimes and be spending their final years in prison in the Hague for starting the Iraq war under false pretenses. Just as Kissinger and Nixon should have been tried for war crimes in Vietnam and probably McNamara and Johnson as well..
We should call out bad actors wherever they are across the globe, even when they are in our own White House.
I do agree we should have no part in it other then to attempt to send food to the starving. The problem is weapons are getting smuggled in too with the food.
I guess that sanctions on China would be a good start... Maybe some have done it but so far I haven't heard much done other then lip service.
As for Bush, did he know? or did his advisors insist on the weapons of mass destruction being there and convince him? So... As for Vietnam... lots should have been charged with war crimes...
I would hazard a guess that in war, often morals get left behind in the name of progress against the enemy.
ohio jones:
If Ukraine survives as an independent nation, it is virtually guaranteed to join the EU and NATO on a fast-track basis, thanks to the shift of public opinion resulting from Putin's invasion.
Russia-friendly bureaucrats seem to have been doing a pretty efficient job of stalling those applications up until now.
Ukraine needs to be cautious about overall costs. Especially overall cultural costs.
i hope this is weighed carefully, “all that glitters” ..
Ukraine should be very interested in the plays over years by NATO and any others, that led to this result.
Maybe nothing! This needs to be figured out.
Is this more a battle between Russia+NATO, with Ukraine just the spoils? The agreed upon location?
Or, something else? Is Ukraine being used by both sides?
Here’s a reason for caution: U.S. House Dems. They do nothing without leveraging-hard for their own interests.
Where does NATO, the UN, EU, stand on for-profit corporate abortion, homosexuality, and other U.S. Democratic non-negotiables?
i loathe for people under literal fire of violent military action to have to compromise morality for their very lives.
i put these different political blocs above nothing. they are proud, and unapologetically so.
i pray for resolution with Russia - without trading their souls to get there.
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:49 pm
Is it possible to understand why someone does something without actually endorsing the person and what they do?
Or is this deemed impossible?
It’s not only possible, but healthy+desireable.
Do not expect to find such sophistication on the internet, or in social media, which wallows in the primitive.
The formula was set in concrete by years+years of “Never Trumpers” who demanded anything less than full-blown hate was proof-positive of DJT idol-worship. The simple-minded formula continues today, with no sign of fading. The game is LOVED.
Reasonable thinking people can be assured, rarely is anything black+white, particularly in politics.
As an example, i just viewed a documentary-style video on JFK (post recent release of old files) that not only went into his sex addictions (and described this as fairly normal in high politics) but, his interactions, his father’s ties with Chicago mobs; the latter was way more disturbing (for me). That is, i learned long ago of carnal amorality and coverups, in politics.
Any inferrence that any of these guys is “innocent,” or guiltless, should be rejected. At most, it’s by degrees.
Do so many threads need to turn to partisan politics and abortion?
temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:52 am
Here’s a reason for caution: U.S. House Dems. They do nothing without leveraging-hard for their own interests.
Where does NATO, the UN, EU, stand on for-profit corporate abortion, homosexuality, and other U.S. Democratic non-negotiables?
This seems to show strong prejudice and lack of understanding. A family member has connections with these folks and I used to know a few decades ago when I lived in the Maryland suburbs. We have strongly differing opinions about the personhood of the fetus, but that does not make them people to not trust in other matters. Many are sincere, wanting to do what is right for our country. They just feel compassion for the mothers highly outweighs compassion for the unborn child. I disagree, but don't condemn their motives in trying to do what is right.
But the subject of this thread is Ukraine. On caring about Ukrainians, we don't have to divide libs and cons. Both are supporting Temporary Protected Status for Ukrainians. This is support I hope we can agree on.
“As Russia Batters Ukraine, Both Sides Say They Are Ready for More Talks” 