Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

"War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

--International Tribunal at Nuremburg

I think this is really important. Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot. The civilians who live in Ukraine do not bear the same responsibility as the soldiers who invaded, and Putin bears the greatest responsibility.

I don't know what the various Caesars should do about this, but I think that moral clarity is important in the Kingdom of God. I don't think Christians should be focused on finding a way for Putin to save face. Sympathy for the people who are now living in a war zone because they were invaded seems more appropriate, caring for the victims of war.

Is there a way for Putin to save face that allows Ukraine to exist and decide how to rule their own country?

Morally, I think the safest thing is to let Caesars figure out how to answer that question and avoid anything that could sound like siding with a military invasion. We should focus on prayer, grieving, hungering for righteousness, helping refugees, finding ways to get food into Ukraine, etc. The most important thing for the Kingdom of God to do is to be the Kingdom of God.

[Soloist]

I think this is really important. Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot. The civilians who live in Ukraine do not bear the same responsibility as the soldiers who invaded, and Putin bears the greatest responsibility.

I don't know what the various Caesars should do about this, but I think that moral clarity is important in the Kingdom of God. I don't think Christians should be focused on finding a way for Putin to save face. Sympathy for the people who are now living in a war zone because they were invaded seems more appropriate, caring for the victims of war.

Is there a way for Putin to save face that allows Ukraine to exist and decide how to rule their own country?

I don't think that was the intent at all. If he can't save face, he is more likely to double down and do stupid things such as dragging the world into a bigger war. I think you assign motives to statements that don't exist.

If Russia withdrew, Putin would lose too much. He may have bit off more then he can chew, but its too late to spit it out and act like nothing happened. There is going to be major economic damage to Russia regardless of actions taken at this point and withdrawing may make it last not as long, but Putin would be finished. I think moral clarity is important, I just don't see it on these forums by some who claim to not be involved in politics.

[RZehr]

Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot.

Why can’t the country being attacked, simply surrender?
Wouldn’t that be in their control? I don’t know that it is correct to say that the attacker is the only one who controls when peace breaks out. It takes two to fight.

[temporal1]

There are always options, Ukraine could choose not to resist.
NATO and others would make it difficult for them, but, nevertheless.

At one point in history, Rome quietly submitted to Barbarians.

In the U.S., there is essentially no defense of the southern border, or flights into the overall U.S. for lots of reasons, like mothers coming to give birth on U.S. soil for their child’s citizenship. Canada is similar, not as open. Canada offers sex-selection abortions.

In the U.S., organized political blocs are allowed to run rampant thru law and the public treasury.

There are many ways to overwhelm a soveriegn nation. Violence is the oldest, most primitive.

Ukraine citizens could offer lunch, and a place to rest. Economic stimulus funds. Voting rights. Higher ed.

[temporal1]

Soloist:
If Russia withdrew, Putin would lose too much.
He may have bit off more then he can chew, but its too late to spit it out and act like nothing happened.

o. you mean like Trudeau is doing right now in Canada? (what truck convoy?!)

Keep in mind, lib politicians+media count on the masses having memories of fleas.
They do as they please, shaking off accountability like yesterday’s junk mail.

Putin isn’t part of lib media, but, libs haven’t yet figured out how to totally exclude others from their self-serving rules.

Ukraine is also a potential quagmire for NATO, and the UN. There are reasons this could be made to disappear.
Like yesterday’s truck convoy in Canada. poof! gone!

[Jazman]

One can admit the failures of Western Diplomacy, especially on the part of the Neoconservatives and Neoliberals, without giving Putin a free-pass to swallow an entire sovereign nation.

Well said HK... basically my position in this mess. It's not a binary, like all? wars... but some people struggle with these kinds of non-binaries and feel like they have to go all in for one side or another.
Lots of mistakes on either side in this one, but at this moment, Putin is the aggressor going on the offense without a justification that's anywhere near proportional... (Ukrainian inclusion in EU/NATO was far off or unattainable... yet it looks like Putin's has the Cheney mindset of 0.1% chance justifies extreme action...) Given all of that, I can accept that the US, the 'West', the EU or NATO have made some bad decisions since the 90's, but that doesn't mean I give Putin a pass either.
The man is not a godly leader in any sense... he does not serve his people well...even though many there think he's a savior... he has actively deprived them of having any accountability over him or his cronies... the company he keeps are not godly men/leaders either... most are thugs and mobsters who love money and never-ending power (no term limits, no real elections to every hold them to account if they lead poorly).

[mike]

No agreements made during talks this morning.

[Ken]

I think this is really important. Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot. The civilians who live in Ukraine do not bear the same responsibility as the soldiers who invaded, and Putin bears the greatest responsibility.

I don't know what the various Caesars should do about this, but I think that moral clarity is important in the Kingdom of God. I don't think Christians should be focused on finding a way for Putin to save face. Sympathy for the people who are now living in a war zone because they were invaded seems more appropriate, caring for the victims of war.

Is there a way for Putin to save face that allows Ukraine to exist and decide how to rule their own country?

I don't think that was the intent at all. If he can't save face, he is more likely to double down and do stupid things such as dragging the world into a bigger war. I think you assign motives to statements that don't exist.

If Russia withdrew, Putin would lose too much. He may have bit off more then he can chew, but its too late to spit it out and act like nothing happened. There is going to be major economic damage to Russia regardless of actions taken at this point and withdrawing may make it last not as long, but Putin would be finished. I think moral clarity is important, I just don't see it on these forums by some who claim to not be involved in politics.

The obvious way out for Putin is to go back out the way he came in. I'm shocked that pacifists would argue for rewarding aggression by legitimizing any achievements gained through war. I would think the way to reduce the temptation of war is to ensure that it is NEVER rewarded. Not to legitimize and reward war and war crimes. If you want less war then don't reward those who engage in it.

In any event, Russia claimed this war is about "regime change" in Ukraine. I expect that Ukraine would be happy to agree to hold new elections in say 6 months after cessation of hostilities and let Ukrainians decide for themselves if they want to elect a pro-Russian government or a pro-Western one such as exists today. What could be more fair than that?

This is looking like an epic miscalculation on Putin's part. I expect they thought it was going to go more like their annexation of Crimea which was nearly bloodless. Troops just rolled in and it was done. But all of Europe is rapidly turning against Russia. Opinion polls in Finland now favor joining NATO for the first time ever, by large majorities. And all of the former Warsaw Pact countries are coming out strongly in favor of Ukraine. If Putin was trying to make a case against NATO he most certainly failed. He is making a compelling case for NATO. Putin is finding out that he has very few friends in the west, and losing those few he had.

The other thing to watch is how the sanctions are working. It looks like they are starting to bite. The Ruble is crashing today and the Russian central bank is taking desperate measures to prop it up by pushing the interest rate on Russian bonds up to 20%. Which is way up in junk bond status. Runs on banks are happening across Russia and they implemented an emergency closure of the Russian stock market to prevent the bottom from falling out. Russian banks with branches in Europe are on the edge of bankruptcy. If one favors alternatives to war, these are them.

[Bootstrap]

Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot.

Why can’t the country being attacked, simply surrender?
Wouldn’t that be in their control? I don’t know that it is correct to say that the attacker is the only one who controls when peace breaks out. It takes two to fight.

But would they be safe and secure as a result? Would this really end the killing, or would Russia then start killing anyone they deem suspicious? Would Putin try to wipe out Ukranian national identity and ethnic identity and language in order to try to make everyone Russian as his rhetoric implies he might?

And do you really want to imply that the aggressor is no more guilty than the country they attack if the country does not immediately surrender to avoid war?

[Ken]

Russia could end the war at any time by withdrawing. Ukraine cannot.

Why can’t the country being attacked, simply surrender?
Wouldn’t that be in their control? I don’t know that it is correct to say that the attacker is the only one who controls when peace breaks out. It takes two to fight.

But would they be safe and secure as a result? Would this really end the killing, or would Russia then start killing anyone they deem suspicious? Would Putin try to wipe out Ukranian national identity and ethnic identity and language in order to try to make everyone Russian as his rhetoric implies he might?

And do you really want to imply that the aggressor is no more guilty than the country they attack if the country does not immediately surrender to avoid war?

There are Ukrainians alive today who experienced the Holodomor. And many who lived through the decades of Soviet dictatorship. I don't think they are naïve as to what Russian rule means. I can't blame them if they want to choose a different path. Which they actually did when they voted overwhelmingly for independence 31 years ago in 1991 with 92.3% of the population voting in favor.