Christians killing each other

[Szdfan]

This topic is about Christians killing Christians, and it doesn't matter who is doing it, that is an unconscionable evil.

Yes. Also: I think we underestimate the hatred that exists between Christians or at least groups of Christians. There is no unity between the Russian and Orthodox churches, but a long history of conflict and competition.

[Ken]

This topic is about Christians killing Christians, and it doesn't matter who is doing it, that is an unconscionable evil.

Yes. Also: I think we underestimate the hatred that exists between Christians or at least groups of Christians. There is no unity between the Russian and Orthodox churches, but a long history of conflict and competition.

It's a chicken and egg thing.

There is a long history of animosity between Ukraine and Russia

Is the conflict between the Ukrainian and Russian churches a contributor to that animosity or a reflection of it?

I honestly have no idea. Probably a little of both but mostly the latter.

[Soloist]

I don't approve if Neto decides to send weapons to Ukraine or Russia.

[Bootstrap]

I agree with you on China. I don't think that means we should ignore Russia, both are committing very serious atrocities.

Other than ignoring a country sovereign territory?

I realize you don't think you are making political judgements, but you seem to be decrying some atrocities and minimizing others.

Do you think invading another country and trying to destroy it is not a war crime? And Russia is famously indiscriminate about schools and hospitals and civilian casualties.

You seem to think it was wrong for Ukraine to seek NATO membership, even though Russia has been a serious threat to Ukraine's national sovereignty. The current war proves that. Blaming Ukraine for this war is like blaming a woman for who got raped because she fought back. The rapist really does bear more responsibility than the victim.

I will not participate in war. I will seek to help refugees from any side in a conflict. But I think we can safely make some moral judgments:

Genocide - bad.
Invading another country and taking it over - bad.
Attacking schools, hospitals, and residential areas - bad.

I don't know how to entirely separate that from political judgements. They are, in fact, judgements about the kingdoms of this world. But I think you are also making judgments about the kingdoms of this world.

[Bootstrap]

This topic is about Christians killing Christians, and it doesn't matter who is doing it, that is an unconscionable evil.

Yes. Also: I think we underestimate the hatred that exists between Christians or at least groups of Christians. There is no unity between the Russian and Orthodox churches, but a long history of conflict and competition.

Like in Northern Ireland. Or in the 100 years war in Europe. Or many other times when Christians became strongly identified with ethnic divisions and nationalism and militarism.

May God have mercy on us all and give us a single eye for his Kingdom.

[Bootstrap]

Is the conflict between the Ukrainian and Russian churches a contributor to that animosity or a reflection of it?

I honestly have no idea. Probably a little of both but mostly the latter.

Very much so. And history runs long and deep here. Do you know about the Holodomor?

The Soviet Union conquered Ukraine in 1917. Under Lenin, they were permitted to have their own language and culture. That all changed under Stalin, with repression and genocide.

By the end of the 1920s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin consolidated his control over the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Feeling threatened by Ukraine's strengthening cultural autonomy, Stalin took measures to destroy the Ukrainian peasantry and the Ukrainian intellectual and cultural elites to prevent them from seeking independence for Ukraine.

To prevent "Ukrainian national counterrevolution," Stalin initiated mass-scale political repressions through widespread intimidation, arrests, and imprisonment. Thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, church leaders, and Ukrainian Communist Party functionaries who had supported pro-Ukrainian policies were executed by the Soviet regime.

The Holodomor ended in 1933. Collectivization was complete with all farmland becoming a socialist property and all farmers working for the state. According to recent demographic studies, 13.3 percent of Ukraine's population died at the time of the Holodomor. In some regions of Ukraine, the percentage of deaths due to the Famine were higher; for example, the rate was 19 percent in Kyiv and 29 percent in Kharkiv oblasts. The Holodomor wiped out millions of Ukrainians. Promotion of a 'new Soviet identity' and official pressure on Ukrainians to use the Russian language intensified. Even when the Holodomor ended, Ukrainians didn't really stop suffering. The families of Holodomor victims feared hunger and further repressions for the rest of their lives, and this fear was passed onto future generations. They were soon to experience new traumas: Stalin's purges of 1937-38, World War II, Nazi occupation and the Holocaust, and the 1946-47 famine.

Another consequence of the Holodomor in Ukraine was a loss of collective memory. In Soviet Ukraine, the Holodomor was kept out of official public discourse until shortly before Ukraine won its independence in 1991. We now know that explicit instructions were issued throughout the Soviet Union banning the use of the word famine, not only in party and military documents but also in medical records and statistical accounts.

And this clearly included an attempt to destroy the Ukranian Orthodox Church:

Lemkin identified four integral components in the genocidal process in Ukraine:

• The decimation of the Ukrainian national elites (political and cultural leaders),
• The destruction of the Ukrainian Autocephalous (independent) Orthodox Church (its clergy and hierarchy),
• The starvation of the Ukrainian farming population (the Holodomor), and
• Its replacement with non-Ukrainians from the RSFSR and elsewhere.

[Soloist]

I realize you don't think you are making political judgements, but you seem to be decrying some atrocities and minimizing others.

Do you think invading another country and trying to destroy it is not a war crime? And Russia is famously indiscriminate about schools and hospitals and civilian casualties.

Ask yourself if we killed civilians in the middle east. Ask yourself who you listen to for what you believe. How many hospitals has Nato bombed, how many has the US bombed. What about Weddings? Pastors? seriously... Military action always has civilian casualties and this isn't something Russia is famous for. Did you hear about the time the US torched an entire village because a corpsman was killed? I doubt it. Vietnam ring a bell? Can you honestly say that one great power commits more war crimes then another? Leaders? sure we have multiple leaders who we can peg quite a long list of war crimes on. Russians and Americans are both people and should be brothers. Ukrainians are not different.

You seem to think it was wrong for Ukraine to seek NATO membership, even though Russia has been a serious threat to Ukraine's national sovereignty. The current war proves that. Blaming Ukraine for this war is like blaming a woman for who got raped because she fought back. The rapist really does bear more responsibility than the victim.

No, its not. Completely different. This is geopolitics and its a messy thing. Russia does not want a Nato member right on their border. The Russian response, while evil, is a tactical move designed to neutralize Nato on the border. The current war proves that. Just as much as your statement, so it basically proves nothing.
You seem to see a just cause in this war on the side of Ukraine. I don't doubt most if not all Ukrainians believe they should fight back and I would to if I wasn't in a different kingdom. Often the Christians in history get carried away with military actions painted in rosy pictures. War is pure evil and we shouldn't wish it on anyone or desire to support either side. Are you going to pray that God's will is done and that we are granted openings to witness? if so we can agree!

Do you think America was right in a tactical way to block nuclear missiles from going to Cuba? Same thing going on here, just not nukes. Doesn't make it right but its likely the explanation for the tactics.

[Bootstrap]

I realize you don't think you are making political judgements, but you seem to be decrying some atrocities and minimizing others.

Do you think invading another country and trying to destroy it is not a war crime? And Russia is famously indiscriminate about schools and hospitals and civilian casualties.

Ask yourself if we killed civilians in the middle east.

Here's the problem I'm having. This feels like a race to the bottom. And it feels like whataboutism. Instead of saying "wow, this is truly awful", it says, "why aren't you thinking of this other thing instead"?

For instance, let me take an example or two where the United States was clearly in the wrong:

Did you hear about the time the US torched an entire village because a corpsman was killed? I doubt it. Vietnam ring a bell?

Yes, Vietnam was a time where the United States was really in the wrong on so many fronts, including horrendous war crimes. But should we respond to that by saying, "what about Mao Tse Deng's genocide, or Stalin's genocide"? No, when faced with an atrocity, look that atrocity straight in the face and denounce it. Don't play whataboutism games. I suppose you could make a good argument that Mao Tse Deng and Stalin were worse, but making that argument in that way would be counterproductive. Better to make an argument along these lines: the reason we must respect human rights in Vietnam is that we do not want to be like Mao Tse Deng and Stalin. We want to be better than that.

Can you honestly say that one great power commits more war crimes than another? Leaders? sure we have multiple leaders who we can peg quite a long list of war crimes on. Russians and Americans are both people and should be brothers. Ukrainians are not different.

I agree that we should all be brothers and that all warfare is wrong.

To me, that makes it blindingly obvious that invading a small country with the biggest political force since World War II is a really terrible thing. Not a "what about this other atrocity" thing.

War is pure evil and we shouldn't wish it on anyone or desire to support either side.

On the other hand, a country that inflicts this evil on another bears no particular moral responsibility, no more than the country it invaded? That makes no sense to me.

You seem to think it was wrong for Ukraine to seek NATO membership, even though Russia has been a serious threat to Ukraine's national sovereignty. The current war proves that. Blaming Ukraine for this war is like blaming a woman for who got raped because she fought back. The rapist really does bear more responsibility than the victim.

No, its not. Completely different. This is geopolitics and its a messy thing. Russia does not want a NATO member right on their border.

And you think that gives Russia the right to take over Ukraine? You seem to be implying that. War is pure evil and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I am angrier at the aggressor than at the victim. I can find no realistic telling of this that makes Ukraine the aggressor.

[Bootstrap]

Are you going to pray that God's will is done and that we are granted openings to witness? if so we can agree!

Absolutely. And I will continue to grieve and mourn and hunger and thirst for righteousness and look for ways to help refugees.

[GaryK]

With war at hand, these religious battles will recede to the background for the time being. However, people on both sides are turning to their faith. Images of Ukrainians praying throughout the country were posted on Twitter on Wednesday (Feb. 23) when the attack started. Other, non-Orthodox Christians noted how Christians on both sides are fighting: “Tanks are rolling down from Russia, Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the tanks,” while “Ukrainian Orthodox priests are blessing the Ukrainian soldiers to fight against Russia.”

The bankrupt morality of the kingdom s of this world and the Orthodox church on display. Strong language I know but, but brothers killing each other deserves strong language.

SMH

A thread in the General Theology forum turning into political judgements and a discussion of which side is worse...

From a KOG perspective, mixing Christianity in with the affairs of the kingdoms of the world is not the Christianity of our King, the Lord Jesus.