HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:12 pmAlso an arms race, am I correct?
And out of control government spending, inflation / worthless local currency, and empty store shelves and no access to consumer goods. This led to the populace being demoralised with Communism.
The authoritarian state didn't help either. It seems the West learned nothing from this, as they are rushing headlong into a repeat of the USSR in the 1980s - bread lines, empty store shelves, broken supply chains, inflation, out of control government spending, and absolute madness when it comes to getting involved in every random conflict around the globe. (Many believe that Afghanistan is what started the end of the USSR. We may find out the same is true for the USA.)
My post in no way suggests that I agree with war it is to just give you an insight to how at least one Ukrainian family feels about what is happening. They are believers that now live in this country. I know the one who wrote this thru ESL, she was actually a teacher as her English was excellent. We had a Ukrainian couple in our class and I so feel for them, their one daughter is still there.
Explaining Russian invasion of Ukraine to a 10-year-old
From conversation with Lydian today:
- You were too young to understand this when it took place, but you are old enough to understand this now. Eight years ago today is when the bloody attack on Ukraine actually took place, that's the day it began, and it continues to this day. It is the day the Heavenly Hundred was killed in the heart of Kyiv, in the very center of Europe.
- What's a Heavenly Hundred?
- It's actually 107 people. In history books they will forever be called the Heavenly Hundred because they sacrificed their lives for freedom and democracy in Ukraine. They shielded others with their backs and lost their lives while doing so.
- Why did they do it?
- The country was rejoicing in the anticipation of establishing closer bonds and friendly relationship with Europe: the President of Ukraine was to sign an association agreement with the European Union. But a week before the big day, Russian President Putin called him in for an urgent meeting in Russia. We don't know exactly what happened behind closed doors. But we have a good idea. Putin didn't want Ukraine to become a partner and a friend of Europe. Clearly, he had a lot of authority over the Ukrainian President. Whatever Putin said - he felt he had to do. So when the time to sign the association agreement with the EU finally came, the President of Ukraine refused to sign it. The people of Ukraine were betrayed. Hundreds of Ukrainians, mostly young people, came out for a peaceful protest - with blue-yellow flags, with balloons, with children in strollers, with songs and lots of hope for a better future.
- And then what happened?
- Lots of things happened. But most importantly, the government of Ukraine that had Russian puppets for leaders, ordered people to go back home.
- But they didn't...
- No, they didn't. So then the government made a new law. According to this law, anyone still participating in the protest, would go to jail.
- Were the people afraid to go to jail? Did they go home?
- No, they stayed. And more people joined them. Together, they felt stronger. But this time the government used force. Police and special forces attacked peaceful protesters with heavy batons and pushed them with their large metal shields. Many people were heavily injured and ended up in the hospitals. It was really scary. The crowds were running to safety, and the streets were empty.
- But they came back, didn't they?
- They did! Thousands of people came back the very next morning. People realized they would have to defend themselves. But no one was prepared for what happened next.
- What?!
- The police pulled out guns. They started shooting at people.
- What?! Did the people start shooting back?
- With what? Ukrainians don't have guns. Well, they didn't used to have guns. Back in the day, Ukraine was a peaceful nation - it never attacked anyone and it didn't need to defend itself from anyone. Now Ukraine has a lot of weapons because it learned it needs to be able to defend itself. But 8 years ago that wasn't the case. People were completely unarmed, and completely unprepared.
- If I were there, I would throw rocks at them!
- Actually, that's exactly what they did. They broke the pavement under their feet and used chunks of it to throw at the attackers. Sticks and rocks against guns. That was the day Ukraine was attacked. That is how it all began. More than a hundred people were killed right downtown, in the capital of Ukraine, on February 20, 2014. Hundreds were severely injured. It was a devastating day for Ukraine. Most of the victims were young men, in their early twenties. It was a tragic day. People were terrified, but also furious. Do you think that was the end of it? Or do you think people came back the next day?
- I don't know... They knew about the guns this time...
- Well, remember I said there were thousands of people gathered to protest before this took place? This time it was MILLIONS! The people of Ukraine had had enough. They came from ALL over Ukraine - south and north, east and west. If the pro-Russian government wanted to kill anyone in their way, they would have to kill millions of people. The day Russia decided to kill democracy for good, it ignited a force it could no longer control.
EDIT: My dear father Donskyi Oleksandr who is a human history book pointed out an error in this post that needed to be corrected. In the original post I wrote that the peaceful protest started as a result of falsified presidential elections. That was the case for the Orange Revolution that took place in 2004. The correction has been made, and Lydian heard the reflection of the events in its chronological order.
Short summary of events that followed: Ukraine's pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted after months of protests. He fled the country never to be seen in Ukraine again. Russia then seized Crimea and backed separatists in the east in a war with Ukraine that continues to this day.
***
If you have access to Netflix, and if your stomach can handle it (it's a documentary with real-life footage), I urge you to watch Winter on Fire. It will help you to understand the context of what's happening on the Eastern border of Ukraine right now and might explain better why Russia just can't get over the fact that Ukraine is an independent, democratic nation that wants nothing to do with Putin.
One thing to remember as the propaganda machine churns out stuff, war crimes are the easiest thing to make up and almost impossible to dispute. Our country has every reason to make it up and very little compulsion to accurately report if Russia is waging a "civilized war".
Ask yourself, is our country more Godly then Russia? who would a Russian believe? who would an American believe?
It is well that war is terrible lest we grow too fond of it. R Lee.
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:29 pmThe native peoples of Ukraine are/were a distinctive ethnic group, with their own languages and cultures. (Plural to include the Tatars, who were ran out of Crimia by the Soviets, and now again in 2014 by the Russian occupation.
By that argument, the peoples of Donetsk People's Republic, Luhansk People's Republic, and the Republic of Crimea are also their own distinctive ethnic groups with different languages and cultures from the rest of the Ukraine.
(The Mennonites who did not emigrate prior to this also went through this same treatment, as did the Jewish people there as well - to an even greater extent.) I just do not think that the "real" Ukrainians are favorable to Russian rule. One of the policies of the Soviet era was to encourage ethnic Russians to spread into all of the satellite "nations" controlled by the USSR. None of those peoples really WANTED to be ruled by that foreign power, or give up their own languages and cultures to be Russified.
How do you define what "real" Ukrainians are? If a given ethnic group should have its own state, OK then, but the U.S. has not agreed with this when it comes to Abkhazia or the disputed parts of Armenia & Azerbaijan. And what lines should be drawn? How far back in history should we go? To follow this logic to its conclusion, Turkey needs to be returned to Greece, the U.K. to Rome, and Taiwan to the Formosans.
If we decide that the "great powers" can be multicultural, multiethnic states, OK then, but then there's no reason for Ukraine (and the other satellite states) to be independent from the Russian Federation. What this really boils down to is the great powers simply doing whatever they want: and stoking ethnic tensions and encouraging breakaway states is something the U.S. notoriously did with Kosovo. Russia is simply doing the same thing now.
Can you point to any Ukrainian efforts at "ethnic cleansing" against the Tatars? (I mention them because not only are they of a different ethnic group, but were also quite different culturally, being nomadic. But perhaps more starkly, they were of a different religion.) Free multi-cultural societies are different than those which oppress other cultural & religious groups. (I've mentioned this before, but look up the holodomor - Ukrainian for "Death by Hunger".)
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:51 pmCan you point to any Ukrainian efforts at "ethnic cleansing" against the Tatars? (I mention them because not only are they of a different ethnic group, but were also quite different culturally, being nomadic. But perhaps more starkly, they were of a different religion.) Free multi-cultural societies are different than those which oppress other cultural & religious groups. (I've mentioned this before, but look up the holodomor - Ukrainian for "Death by Hunger".)
The largest minority group in the Ukraine is Russians (about 17%). Before WW II, it was around 13%. Tatars continue to be a tiny amount - literally 0.1% or 0.2% (Crimean Tatars being a bit more, still less than 1% of the Ukraine's population).
But if you're concerned about treatment of "minority" groups in Russia, well, Russia is hugely multiethnic and multicultural (I leave it up to the reader to decide if that's a good or a bad thing). The entire reason all these satellite ethnic states exist in the first place is because they formed them during the breakup of the USSR.
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:51 pmCan you point to any Ukrainian efforts at "ethnic cleansing" against the Tatars? (I mention them because not only are they of a different ethnic group, but were also quite different culturally, being nomadic. But perhaps more starkly, they were of a different religion.) Free multi-cultural societies are different than those which oppress other cultural & religious groups. (I've mentioned this before, but look up the holodomor - Ukrainian for "Death by Hunger".)
The largest minority group in the Ukraine is Russians (about 17%). Before WW II, it was around 13%. Tatars continue to be a tiny amount - literally 0.1% or 0.2% (Crimean Tatars being a bit more, still less than 1% of the Ukraine's population).
But if you're concerned about treatment of "minority" groups in Russia, well, Russia is hugely multiethnic and multicultural (I leave it up to the reader to decide if that's a good or a bad thing). The entire reason all these satellite ethnic states exist in the first place is because they formed them during the breakup of the USSR.
After the Czar abdicated the throne, Ukraine formed a democracy (in 1917), but was soon over-run by the Reds.
Regarding the Russian population in Ukraine, it would be more telling to see what it was before 1917, or even 1925. Then Ukraine was grossly depopulated during the early 30's (by the ethnocide sponsored by Stalin), as referenced in the encyclopedia article. I imagine that the Russian population greatly increased there (as in other non-ethnic Russian territories controlled by the Russian Soviets) in the years that followed. But the efforts to Russify the non-Russian peoples had started already during the Czarist era, especially starting in the 1880's. The last of my relatives (my great grandfather) to emigrate to the States knew Russian well enough to work as a Russian-English translator (after learning English, following his 1891 arrival in Nebraska as a 19 or 20 year old single man). Those who came earlier (mostly in 1874 and into the latter part of the 1870s) knew very little Russian.
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:58 pm
One thing to remember as the propaganda machine churns out stuff, war crimes are the easiest thing to make up and almost impossible to dispute. Our country has every reason to make it up and very little compulsion to accurately report if Russia is waging a "civilized war".
Russia has a long track record of war crimes, though. Do you believe they have suddenly turned over a new leaf?
Why the urge to proclaim Russian innocence? On a very different scale than most countries. When do you believe taking over your neighbor by military force is justified? What means do you consider legitimate for doing so? If they do engage in war crimes, do you want to be involved in a coverup for them? What are you doing to avoid that?
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:58 pm
One thing to remember as the propaganda machine churns out stuff, war crimes are the easiest thing to make up and almost impossible to dispute. Our country has every reason to make it up and very little compulsion to accurately report if Russia is waging a "civilized war".
Russia has a long track record of war crimes, though. Do you believe they have suddenly turned over a new leaf?
Why the urge to proclaim Russian innocence? On a very different scale than most countries. When do you believe taking over your neighbor by military force is justified? What means do you consider legitimate for doing so? If they do engage in war crimes, do you want to be involved in a coverup for them? What are you doing to avoid that?
Or they’re just responding to a call for aid from DPR and LPR, not “invading”. See how that works?
The obvious answer is that war is never good for a Christian and it is impossible to apply kingdom values to figuring out when a war is just. (I suggest those that want to try consider becoming Catholic or Orthodox, since they’ve spent 1,600 years trying to answer that question.)
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:58 pm
One thing to remember as the propaganda machine churns out stuff, war crimes are the easiest thing to make up and almost impossible to dispute. Our country has every reason to make it up and very little compulsion to accurately report if Russia is waging a "civilized war".
Russia has a long track record of war crimes, though. Do you believe they have suddenly turned over a new leaf?
Why the urge to proclaim Russian innocence? On a very different scale than most countries. When do you believe taking over your neighbor by military force is justified? What means do you consider legitimate for doing so? If they do engage in war crimes, do you want to be involved in a coverup for them? What are you doing to avoid that?
And the USA has a long track record of war crimes... Who writes the record of Russian war crimes? Who writes the records of USA war crimes?
Russia is not inncocent. Their argument against neo-nazi's is weak at best... clearly not their primary goal. My point is people posting dramatic things such as, "here is Russia shooting children with rockets" is propaganda. No different then Pres Obama's red line suddenly being met right after he stated it in Syria.
I am not defending Russia or Putin. Nor am I defending Ukraine. I don't know enough regarding the post about missiles with the children to know its right or wrong, but my point is that propaganda is rarely provable, and basing an ideal of one side or another being "just" is dangerous for Christians. Ask yourself, why are the Christians in Ukraine fighting Christians in Russia? Is one side more just then the other? Maybe from a USA or Russia view, but is that truth? Or is it a lie? Should we care past praying for it to be openings to preach the gospel? We obviously care about those who are harmed by war.
Please don't take my opinions to support either side. I belong to a third side and would advocate if asked by either Ukraine or Russia for them to lay their weapons down and embrace Jesus their true King.