Poll: Freedom Convoy and Related Protests

[Szdfan]

Which protests are we discussing? Freedom Convoy is in Ottawa. I don't think the others are actually associated with it, but may be wrong.

I don’t know which is which but for example here in the northwest Canadian truckers are currently blockading the border crossings between WA and BC.

If you are say a dairy farmer and vandals burn your farm truck at a protest and it costs you $50,000. Or if protestors blockade the highway outside your farm and you are forced to dump your milk for a week because the milk truck can’t get through and you lose $50,000 worth of milk sales. What is the difference? Both acts of protest cost you equal harm. Dumping the milk might cost you more actually because the truck is probably insured.

I certainly do not deny that protests generally are inconvenient for people. But the one in Ottawa really has not put many people out at all. You can still get anywhere in Ottawa you want to. In fact I am told it is easier to get around right now on weekdays. This is a picnic compared to Seattle. That was truly an occupation. This so far has really been the winter of love I. Ottawa.

I was reading tonight that over $300 million of economic activity pass over the Ambassador Bridge a day. Blocking traffic on the Bridge caused shutdowns at auto factories because the bridge is a major route for the auto supply chain industry. I think there’s been some significant economic damage caused by the blockade.

[Soloist]

I don’t know which is which but for example here in the northwest Canadian truckers are currently blockading the border crossings between WA and BC.

If you are say a dairy farmer and vandals burn your farm truck at a protest and it costs you $50,000. Or if protestors blockade the highway outside your farm and you are forced to dump your milk for a week because the milk truck can’t get through and you lose $50,000 worth of milk sales. What is the difference? Both acts of protest cost you equal harm. Dumping the milk might cost you more actually because the truck is probably insured.

I certainly do not deny that protests generally are inconvenient for people. But the one in Ottawa really has not put many people out at all. You can still get anywhere in Ottawa you want to. In fact I am told it is easier to get around right now on weekdays. This is a picnic compared to Seattle. That was truly an occupation. This so far has really been the winter of love I. Ottawa.

I was reading tonight that over $300 million of economic activity pass over the Ambassador Bridge a day. Blocking traffic on the Bridge caused shutdowns at auto factories because the bridge is a major route for the auto supply chain industry. I think there’s been some significant economic damage caused by the blockade.

In the early morning, we ask you to organize with your friends to shut down the basic elements of the city. Join a protest, organize direct action, sick out of work, and skip class. Shut down high traffic intersections, block highway onramps, and police stations.

https://strikeforblacklives.org

The march resulted in a violent confrontation with police, including the smashing of CHP cruiser windows, and the shutting down of the 101 Freeway near downtown.

https://abc7news.com/protests-in-los-an ... d/6216002/

Seems like blocking roads is a normal protest activity. Its just they picked the wrong road and ended up more like these guys.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Bonus-Army

In mid-June the U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill that authorized an immediate payout of the bonuses to the veterans, but the Senate rejected the bill (62–18), and most of the veterans left for home discouraged. The rest, variously estimated at 2,000 to 10,000, over the next few weeks engaged in protests and near-riots, producing an atmosphere of restlessness and threats of turbulence. Local authorities requested that U.S. Pres. Herbert Hoover intervene. Troops led by Brig. Gen. Perry L. Miles and accompanied by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the U.S. Army chief of staff, drove out the demonstrators and destroyed their encampments, using tanks and tear gas. One veteran was shot to death, and several veterans and policemen were wounded. Congress then appropriated $100,000 to send the protestors home, and they dispersed.

Politically, the event was a blow to Hoover. A second Bonus Army came in May 1933 and this time was greeted by the new president’s wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, and presidential assistant Louis Howe. Although again no bonus legislation was passed, Congress did create the Civilian Conservation Corps, in which many of the veterans were able to find work. In 1936, however, Congress finally passed, over a presidential veto, a bill to disburse about $2 billion in veterans’ benefits. The Bonus Army laid the foundation for the G.I. Bill of Rights (1944).

My conclusion is that protesting on the federal level doesn't go well for protestors. At least tanks were only ever used on military protestors in the USA...

[temporal1]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

It’s reasonable to guess, whatever losses result from this convoy are miniscule compared to 2+ years of widespread losses imposed by gov mandate. As well, it’s woefully inaccurate to speak of economic losses without also accounting for economic gains, Profit+Loss Reports have TWO columns, not one.

Add in reported DECREASED crime, which adds economic gain, and more than economic gain.

We had a good friend who was VP of commercial lending in a local bank. He was also a bank auditor.
He once told us, “In every market transaction, there are winners+losers.”

Anyone who takes basic bookkeeping or Accounting 101, or even balances a checkbook knows, there are debits+credits.
Reports should routinely reflect a more accurate picture.

It’s entirely possible Canada may be experiencing an overall boost to their economy, if there was anything near a fair report.
Don’t overlook increase taxes paid! Canada isn’t shy about collecting taxes. The real bottom line may never be known.

i hope this thing results in overall good for Canada. It’s known failure is wanted by some, who are willing to sabotage.
The GiveSendGo hackers make that crystal-clear.

The losses suffered in 2020 Seattle, Portland, Chicago, etc., were in the billions, and the costs continue to accrue, in violence, theft, destruction.

[Robert]

I was reading tonight that over $300 million of economic activity pass over the Ambassador Bridge a day. Blocking traffic on the Bridge caused shutdowns at auto factories because the bridge is a major route for the auto supply chain industry. I think there’s been some significant economic damage caused by the blockade.

If you listened to the video I posted, he states that they are not affiliated with the Ambassador Bridge group. They only are organizing the Ottawa Freedom Convoy 2022. All the other protests are independent from them and each other.

[ken_sylvania]

A couple of things about this really intrigue me:

Instead of reporting on actual violence happening in these protests, a variety of news articles mention "the potential for violence" or "the potential for tempers flaring" or similar. There is a stunning lack of detailed reporting about actual violence. Even the reports about supposed violent behavior are so vague as to be worthless.

The "Grey Lady" now has an article reporting on the contributors to the protest - their source is stolen data. Does that tell us anything about their ethics? I think it does.

[Ernie]

It really is a bit rich in my mind to claim that business being shut down for a protest is a terrible thing when in fact so many have been shut down and inconvenienced for two years now.
My personal opinion had always been that protests should not inconvenience people but again the inconsistency of government and union leaders and teachers complaining about these protest when they use protests and strikes to inconvenience people all the time is not lost on me.

As I've said before, I am not in favor of vaccine mandates. I am not in favor of lockdowns. I can easily believe that people have taken their own life - due to despair related to Covid mandates. I can easily see the inconsistency and hypocrisy. My point in this thread is that two wrongs do not make one right.

[Szdfan]

The "Grey Lady" now has an article reporting on the contributors to the protest - their source is stolen data. Does that tell us anything about their ethics? I think it does.

Meh. The Pentagon Papers were stolen. Wikileaks released stolen information.
I think the fact that almost half of the money raised by the “Freedom Convoy” came from outside Canada is a newsworthy item — it suggests some of the ways the protests are being co-opted by the right in the US and how they are now interfering with Canadian politics.

[Szdfan]

I was reading tonight that over $300 million of economic activity pass over the Ambassador Bridge a day. Blocking traffic on the Bridge caused shutdowns at auto factories because the bridge is a major route for the auto supply chain industry. I think there’s been some significant economic damage caused by the blockade.

If you listened to the video I posted, he states that they are not affiliated with the Ambassador Bridge group. They only are organizing the Ottawa Freedom Convoy 2022. All the other protests are independent from them and each other.

Protests movements get co-opted all the time by others who use the momentum to further their own agenda. Even if the Freedom Convoy had nothing to do the Ambassador Bridge, their protest in downtown Ottawa helped feed it.

You tend to lump all of the BLM protests in one lump, even though there may be multiple actors involved that don’t really have much to do with each other.

[Ernie]

Our presidents are chosen with less then 200mil votes. I don't see how any protest would ever come anywhere near 200mil ever. That's just completely unrealistic.

I agree that this is probably unrealistic. I used the 200 million number as a guess for the minimum number of North Americans who are not in favor of vaccine mandates. I think a far lesser number than 200 million appeals would have a noticeable impact on the government. If nothing else, record keepers could at least give numbers for how many people are making the appeals.

One of the reasons the 200 million figure is unrealistic is because people have a hard time thinking outside the box. Protests in the streets and restricting traffic is about the only way most people know how to get the attention of the media and the government. A continent-wide effort such as sending appeals to government agencies is not attractive nor realistic because it doesn't have the "red meat" and the sensational appeals that a protest does.

200 million letters could cause substantial delays to people who rely on speedy deliveries for medication, food and so on.

Yes, that is a good point.
After seeing government responses to hurricanes and so forth, I can't imagine they would be able to prioritize normal deliveries, medication, and food. You'd probably need to utilize other carriers and courier services.
My main point was to get us to think outside the box rather than only thinking in terms of what has been done in the past.

[temporal1]

It really is a bit rich in my mind to claim that business being shut down for a protest is a terrible thing when in fact so many have been shut down and inconvenienced for two years now.
My personal opinion had always been that protests should not inconvenience people but again the inconsistency of government and union leaders and teachers complaining about these protest when they use protests and strikes to inconvenience people all the time is not lost on me.

As I've said before, I am not in favor of vaccine mandates. I am not in favor of lockdowns. I can easily believe that people have taken their own life - due to despair related to Covid mandates. I can easily see the inconsistency and hypocrisy. My point in this thread is that two wrongs do not make one right.

Ernie,
i believe you and/or others could take measures as you’ve described, i.e., you have the freedom to do so; personally, i would be as interested in such actions as i am interested in Canada’s convoy - probably moreso. (even in face of Soloist’s practical logistics concerns.)

i don’t see this as “either-or.”
i would not expect the truckers to criticize such efforts. many might wholeheartedly support.
as people learn better, are offered better choices, they have the opportunity to choose better.

i don’t agree with all church groups in the way they believe/worship. sometimes the gap is painful. i don’t believe they should be shut down. having freedoms means tolerating freedoms of others, whether we agree or admire, or not.

unfortunately, the world seems to be heading toward less tolerance, less mutual respect (esp in matters of disagreement).

what value is mutual respect between like thinkers?
the test is mutual respect in times of disagreement (which i believe you value and strive for).